Wadkin AGS10 questions?

[MusicMan]

Hello all! I'm new to posting though I have read many posts on this forum and learned a lot. I'm a retired academic/industrial engineer, who used to design very high precision equipment ... but in those days I had someone to make them for me . I've had formal training in both metal and woodwork, but haven't had the long hours of experience that many forum members have had, and I find the contributions on this forum really helpful.

I've recently become a happy owner of a 1960s ish Wadkin AGS10 (serial 622988) and am putting it into service. I wouldn't call it a restoration as it is in excellent shape: flat table, fence running and adjusting smoothly, bearings seem sound as do the mechanisms, apart from a bit of play in the rise-and-fall but I guess that is normal for the age and seems quite acceptable. However I have a question on the pinion that does the fine adjustment on the fence (parts 18, 19 and 20 on page 3 of the 'older AGS model' manual in the Wadkin Library). This item is worn almost conical at the end and could do with replacing or at least reversing if that is possible. I have a two questions on this:

1. Does anyone know the pitch of the rack (D.P. of the pinion gear)?
2. Does anyone know how the pinion, shaft and handle are assembled? Can the pinion be reversed on the shaft or is it integral? I can't see any screw or pin holes, so it may have been pressed together inside its Oilite bush and the whole pressed into the rip fence front bracket (part 17). But I thought I'd ask before applying force to get it out!

It is also missing the 3/8" BSW x 1" bolt, part 15 on page 2, which goes into the spindle housing. I removed this bolt to move the spindle so that the blade and riving knife are aligned, and found that it was actually a metric bolt that did not engage any threads but appeared to have been stuck on with the repaint job! I presume this should be the proper bolt, and that the through hole is large enough to allow a little adjustment for this alignment. Can someone confirm that this is how it would work? It is unsurprising that the arbor had crept a little to far out of the housing if this bolt was not making contact. I am not sunning up the motor till a replacement bolt arrives.

Finally, the Wadkin manual talks about 'ranging down' a blade, by what seems a pretty hairy procedure. I have never heard of this process but presume it is to make sure that the blade is cutting on all teeth evenly and not just the highest one. Does anyone still do this? Or is it not necessary with modern blades? (presumably never with TCT blades).

Many thanks in advance for any replies

Keith

 

[wallace]

Sorry cant help with stuff about the saw I have yet to restore one. The 'ranging down' sounds a bit like stoneing a blade where by the saw is run and a abrasive stone is offered up slowly to remove any high spots. I presume its to make all the teeth do their share of cutting. I cant imagine it is needed with modern blades.

 

[memzey]

While we're at it I've got a question on this type of saw as well - does anyone know what the thread pitch/pattern is for the 5/8" arbour on this saw?

 

[Myfordman]

It will be Whitworth form and either std Whitworth pitch or maybe bsf pitch. There will be tables on line.
BSW 11 tpi. BSF 14 tpi

 

[memzey]

Cheers 9 fingers. Is there a way I can tell the two apart?

 

[MusicMan]

Memzey, I have just put a thread gauge on my saw arbor. It is definitely 5/8" diameter and measures at 12 TPI. Now this is neither 5/8 BSW (14 TPI) or BSW (11 TPI) though it looks as if a BSW might fit. It is possible that mine has had a replacement arbor and nut cut - the thread does not look quite manufacturer's quality (the thread tops are a bit flat, to my eye).

The Wadkin manual does not mention a thread size for this nut, though I thought I had seen it somewhere referred to as 5/8 BSF.

Note of course that it is a LEFT hand thread. If Wadkin can't supply, you will have to get one made, not a huge job on a screwcutting lathe.

 

[Myfordman]

Don't forget that a complete thread is a crest and a trough.
measure across a few crests, count the crests and divide the measurement by 1 less than the no of crests to get the pitch. take the reciprocal to get tpi

I'd be surprised if they went away from standard pitches - would have just increased production costs?

 

[MusicMan]

I did know that, 9fingers, but you weren't to know that I knew . I used a pitch gauge and am sure of the tpi measurement (I used to run a metrology lab). I tried hard to make it fit 11 or 14 but it didn't! Looking more closely in better light, it seems to be a fine buttress thread (but 5/8 ACME is 8 tpi). I do agree it would be weird to go non-standard, which is why I suspect mine may be an aftermarket replacement, not a Wadkin original.

Memzey, I do suggest you measure your own arbor pitch the way 9fingers suggests.

 

[memzey]

Ok. Just to be clear on what this means (I have never run any form of lab let alone metrology ) - I will place the edge of my 6" rule along the arbour and count the number of peaks in an inch. Is that right? Should I start at a peak and if so do I count it as part of this measure?

 

[memzey]

Here is a picture to show you what I mean:


Can you tell from that what the thread type is? Musicman does this look like yours as well?

 

[MusicMan]

Yes it looks just the same as mine. You don't count the peak you start on (you need to count the spaces in an inch). Yours looks like 12 threads per inch also though I suppose it could just be 11, which would be 5/8 BSW. So maybe mine is an original after all, though the threads look flat on the top compared with a regular Whitworth thread.

 

[Andy RV]

Unless the picture is deceiving me that doesn't look anything like a Whitworth thread form.. the tops are flat!

Might be a screwcutting job on the lathe.

 

[memzey]

Yes the tops are definitely flat. I thought that made it more likely to be an acme thread but I'm well out of my comfort zone now! Is there a way we can definitively tell? I'd be surprised if Musicman and I both have matching non-OEM threads from similar saws of a similar age (1963 in my saws' case). I'd have thought it more likely that this was the standard for arbours out of the factory. Assuming that to be the case I'd also be surprised if Wadkin used a bespoke thread pattern as that would surely drive up the cost of production for no perceivable gain. That would leave us with the standards that were in use in 1960's England. Which of those do we think this most likely is?

 

[memzey]

I've done some digging online and I think it might be UNC thread. We'd have to accept that it's 11 TPI though. I think I might take another pic and see if I can get a clearer shot.

 

[SammyQ]

MusicMan and Memzey, I have completed a complete strip down and rebuild of an AGS 10". Not as good as Mark, a.k.a.'Wallace', but I'm familiar with the beastie. For a L.H. nut such as you describe, I suggest you try Sargeants or the machinery dealers down in Sidcup in Kent, G and M I think they're called. They break/part out machines.

You may also strike gold on one of the metal-strangling forums, if you need to find a supplier at a decent price. John 'Bogstandard' is back on MadModder and HMEM I think; he's always willing to part with good solid advice. 'Doubleboost' is equally good, has a large U Tube flotilla and may - if asked really nicely - point you in a fruitful direction.

I'm away in India for the next 16 days, charity thingy, but I have lots of photos of the AGS innards etc and I can help once I'm back - if you can wait that long? I suspect Mr. Fish, or one of the other AGS owners, will weigh in long before that!

Best of luck, Sam

 

[misterfish]

When it comes to the arbor details I can't really help as my version (BRT10 - which is essentially an AGS10 with sliding table) has a 20mm arbor. Also, to add to the fun the mitre slots in the table are also 20mm but I have a decent aftermarket Kreg mitre that has enough adjustment to fit well. My saw was made in the early 70's (as far as I can ascertain) and nearly everything I have measured on it seems to be metric rather than imperial.

I've not had to do any major adjustment on my saw - it came from a school woodworking department so had a relatively easy life. OK there is a bit of freeplay in the rise and fall adjuster but that causes no problems. I juse completely clean out the inside every so often and squirt all the adjusty bits with GT85 ptfe spray.

Misterfish

 

[MusicMan]

I attach three pictures of my arbor. The first shows a 11 thread-per-inch gauge against it. This is NOT a fit. The next two show an inch steel ruler (calibrated against a slip gauge, so it is accurate) with the zero at the edge of one thread. It is easy to count the turns and see that it is indeed a TWELVE thread per inch thread.

From my and Mezmey's pictures you can also easily see that it is a trapezoidal thread, in fact I am pretty sure that it is a square thread. This was used to transmit almost pure thrust, perfect for holding saw blades on firmly. Wadkin will have turned the arbor and nut from solid, with skilled machinists, so no big deal to make what they liked. The square left hand thread nut is not something you buy of the shelf anyway.

It is a difficult thread to cut. It needs a lot of skill in grinding the tool and setting up the lathe, much more so than the regular Whitworth or metric. You will need a skilled mechanic. In fact your best plan is to get in touch with Wadkin or the company that does spares for them (Dalton?). It will probably cost a lot but don't accept anyone who doesn't know what they are doing. (I can cut regular threads but would need a lot of training/learning to do this one). And the mechanic will most likely want the arbor to check the exact profile and the fit of the final nut.

 

[MusicMan]

Sorry, the pictures didn't attach ... back to the forum guide to find out how to do it!

 

[MusicMan]

Sorry, my pics were too big. Here they are.

1) and 2), count the threads in an inch, clearly 12 TPI

3) 11 tpi gauge - clearly wrong.


Note square thread form.

 

[Myfordman]

The last picture is showing incorrect use of a thread gauge. oops sorry you are the metrology man! and showing how it is NOT 11 TPI

Once they have decided to use a square thread then they can choose a pitch at will.

My Xcalibur TS uses a square thread too.