Veneering Help

[Risticuss]

Hi all,

As you can no doubt tell I am new to this forum, and am in need of a bit of assistance.

I would like to find out how to go about veneering my drum kit, with Maple veneer.

I have done this once before, for a drum model project at university, but it didn't need to be incredably neat, as it was just for appearence rather than for sound qualities. For this i just used contact cement and glued it in three places: both ends and the middle. This was great for the model, but would be useless for a played kit.

I was hoping someone here could give me some pointers as to how I might go about this.

Thanks

Simon

 

[mambo]

hello and welcome

i wouldnt want to tackle it :!:

ive done a fair amount of laminating and veneering in my time as a shopfitter, the only helpfull advice i can offer is to allow plenty of spare veneer on the edges as it always runs out on curves

edit: although thinking about it are you thinking of doing it in small pieces? as i was thinking about doing it in one originally

 

[Philly]

Hi Simon
Welcome to the forum!
I've just been reading an article where veneer was applied with PVA glue and an iron. Apply two thinned coats of glue to the veneer and the ground, let them dry and then iron the veneer onto the groundwork. The iron melts the dried glue, re-activating it.
Not tried it yet (although I will experiment soon!) but should be worth a go. Sounds like a low pressure method.
Hope this helps
Philly

 

[Anonymous]

Hi simon
Not wishing to deflate your optimism and all that, but I think your wasting your time trying to do it especially if your not familiar with woodworking. Speaking as one who plays drums, I know how critical it is to avoid air void's between the ply's and I dont think its technically feasible to do it without one of those rotary veneer presses that they have at premier and them factories. Also you have to maintain perfect circularity and flat bearing edge's, you may well knock the shells out of round by adding veneer especially with an iron(?? :lol: ) which could actually do more harm than good. Drum shell's are very sensitive things. AND you could ruin what decent acoustical qualities they do have, AND you'd have a tremendous fanny on dissassembling the hardware, re drilling the newly veneered shells and re assembling afterwards, AND re machining a new bearing edge....... Theres a lot of clart on with this sort of job. If they are cheap shells (far eastern/chinese luan etc) I'd sell them and save up for a pack of yamaha's or Ayotte's from rockbottom or somewhere. Putting one veneer of maple isnt going to give you an authentic maple sound anyway, is it (if thats what your after?) If they are good shell's maybe Eddie Ryan or Richmo (if they are still in business) or some other specialist drum techie could sort you out? But frankly I suspect it would cost more in the end though, than it would to PX these shells and upgrade to a better quality set. After all the thing that determines the quality of a drum shell is the precision of the bearing edges, and the degree of true roundness, and how well those qualities are likely to be retained over their playing life. You get what you pay for, theres not really a cut price option.
Hope this helps, Cheers Jonathan

 

[woodbloke]

Hi Simon and welcome to the forum - Philly's method is worth a punt but definitely try it out before you have a go for real. Which ever way you eventually do it, it will be a very ticklish business...veneering round a curve like a drum isn't something I'd contemplate doing in a hurry 8-[ - Rob

 

[Waka]

Simon

Welcome to the forum.

It really is worth giving Philly's method a try, even if its not successful first time round, think of the learning curve, its only by trying that we succeed.

Let us know how you get on.

 

[DomValente]

And let us know how it goes

 

[Newbie_Neil]

Hi Simon

Welcome to the forum.

Cheers
Neil

 

[Colin C]

Hi Simon

I have veneered curved bits before ( I used peal/ scotch glue ), with means that if they are any pockets you can lay them down

If you do want to try this, then you will need a chocolate pot ( double boiler ), some peal glue and some Titanium white ( which is a pigment powder, used for polishing ). The titanium white is to lighten the glue as it can be dark.

You will need to key the drum surface ( with a toothed blade or some thing like it )

Make some size with the peal ( size is watered down glue that you brush on ).

The problem with the veneering you looking to do is some thing that is hard to do but if it is not costing too much, then I would say have a go.

If you would like more info on this way, let me know

Good luck if you do have a go

 

[Anonymous]

I never intended to depress simon or anyone, or mock phillys new venneering method for that matter (It probably works fine for a flat surface where you can get solid even pressure-but on curved and sometiomes flimsy and temparamental drum shells?) BUT the point I tried to make was that unless every square inch of veneer is 100% solidly bonded with no air void's, it will make the drum sound rubbish, as if youd muffled them, the voids prevent the drum from resonating freely. The need for void proof ply's is a constant challenge for drum manufacturers. It could be very difficult if not impossible to achieve that level of qulaity as a retro fit, and if you "experimented" you could ruin a shell that you could otherwise have PX'd for a better one?
But Simon, if I havent discouraged you, go for it, proove me wrong :lol:

One thought as ocurred to me (for thicker shells with internally parallel sides with no reinforcement rings as you get on the thin type of shell's) you could make an internal perfectly circular form, 1 or 2 mm slightly smaller diameter than the inside of the shell, and cut it into 4 equal segments, and use thin wedges in the cut lines to force the 4 sections equally spaced & tight against the inside of the shell (same principle as wedging a tennon to spread it, or how a hat stretcher works?) this would make the shell stable and able to take some clamping pressure. Then try to glue your venneer around the outside. You could possibly use tyre inner tubes stretched tight to get the compression if you used normal glue? and a venneer hammer or roller to get air out? Maybe you can get glue in sheets that you could put in between the venneer and the shell then heat it, or try phill's method even, but it would still be tricky to get even heat and pressure. Its not a job as I would even think of attempting though :wink: :lol:

cheers Jonathan

Of course you could use a vaccum pressure bag to clamp the venneer to the shell also? PS also remember to align the grain along the length of the shell, not going round it this improves sonic quality also

 

[Risticuss]

Hi there guys

firstly, thankyou for all the helpful ideas and for pointing out the possible problems with this project.

I am a reasonably confident wood worker and have tackled many other projects, but have yet to do any serious veneer work which is why i posted. I am currently building snare drums as a side line to my course to earn some extra money whilst at university and have assembled and disassembled many a drum.

I wanted to do this as I am fed up with the way my kit looks, and would like to experiment as to how I can improve it. I have a spare 13" tom that isn't used so I would be working on that, its just that as my kit was pretty inexpensive, and was always intended to be wrapped in plastic the outer ply of the shell was marked with permanent pen to tell what size it was. Thus, the veneering approach as opposed to just stripping the wrap and finishing straight away.

I will have to look into the various techniques.

Mr Spanton : I do not take any offence or feel deflated by your reply as this has helped point out the difficulties of doing this for a first timer. I love a challenge though and will let you know if I actually try it, or take your advice and just buy a new kit (which I have seen, but the women in my life seem to feel I don't need )

Colin: I may take you up on that offer, and shall let you all know how everything goes.

I am filled with positive vibes as I write this, as i think this great forum has inspired me to get more in touch with the wood worker in me.

Cheers

Simon

 

[Nick W]

I have used the method suggested by Phil on some rosewood veneer on a lute neck and on the legs and drawer sides of this:

It works fine, and if you do get voids, with care you can iron them down. However Pearl glue is the trad. way and, I suspect, would be at least slightly more forgiving, so my inclination would be to try that first.

 

[Anonymous]

Welcome back Simon

I hope it works out well for you.
What method have you been using for the snare drum shell's, especially the bearing edges on the snare side; do you use a router? And where do you get the hardware from, is it new or recycled from older drum's, free floating? You could do some good experiments there. Have you ever seen the project one snare that premier made years ago, it was made from laminated staves of birch plywood with a second resonating hollow chamber inside, very unique design. Just a thought have you considered doing a frame drum from laminated venneers? Rims type Afro kit that would knock em bandy :lol:
Might I ask which "new" :wink: kit your intrested in?
How does your present kit sound even if it looks naff? All might not be lost. If you check your bearing edge's, get a new set of head's, tune them carefully and evenly, manage to add some maple etc?? Add a 13 inch picolo snare?? Or a 10 inch pork pie snare??
Did you know every drum has a pitch where it likes to resonate at? If you tune it to that pitch it will sing. You can use a keyboard to find that pitch, just tap the shell (free of any head's, hardware etc and find the note it makes) On some cheaper drums, the pitches can be very hit and miss, not consiistent from the small down to the large whereas a good shell pack will give consistent reonance drum to drum.
I had an old kit (rogers was it??) and it was a green metallic finsh which actually was translucent green plastic stapled over tin foil glued to the shell. Just stripping the plastic improved the sound. The bearing edg's were round rather than a 45 degree chamfer which is what they ideally should be, but back then I didnt have the wherewithal to do any work on it. Anyway now I'm a roland man :lol: :lol: It'd be difficult to persuade me back to an acoustic kit, especially with the roland monitor system :shock: 8)

Happy sticking, cheers Jonathan

 

[Risticuss]

the method i've been using to make my drum shells has been to use a 'segmented design'. it involves gluing layers of glued together blocks of wood on top of each other and then stuck on the lathe and turned to the proper shell size. I have a couple of pictures of these at http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l109/risticuss/

The bearing edges are at present being done on the lathe with the aid of a giant 50cm dia x 2 metre length lathe at uni, which can adequately hold a 14inch drum in the chuck. I have invested a small amount in a DIY router and tble, and have made my own table-top to do larger drums, but have yet to actually use it. I will be trying it on a 13" bubinga snare within the next couple of months though (when i finally get it turned). The snare beds are simply sanded into the bottom bearing edge by hand.

As for the hardware, it can be bought in limited supply from a drumshop near me, as well as online in the UK and US, and i'm contemplating making my own wooden lugs and the like.

My current kit is a Sonor 503, so nothing really worth much, which is why I was going to experiment with it. Sonically, it's better than the really cheap kits, and the edges and heads are all fine (heads have been changed in the last 6 months) so I do really need another kit, but I have been looking at a Mapex Pro M or a PDP CX. I do love the roland kits, especially the big, shiney, expensive ones but alas, being a poor student, I am yet to afford one. Maybe in a few decades.

Anyway (the end of the long post), thanks again guys for all your help and I will endeavour to let you know how it comes out. I may experiment with an mdf drum and some cheap beech veneer i have in the workshop at uni.

Cheers

Simon