To scrape or not to scrape?

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gasmansteve

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Hi all
Maybe I`ve been watching too many turning dvd`s I don`t know but is the use of a scraper bad practice or does the end result justify the means?.
I watch the likes of Jimmy Clewes who admittedly is in another dimension to some of us mere mortals who jumps straight from the gouge to 180 grit sandpaper no problemo whereas I struggle to get somewhere near even a rough surface and then use the scraper to smooth off stuff that should come off with the chisel. BTW should the flute point in the direction of travel always?.
Note to self `make notes when people show you stuff`
Steve
 
Steve,

I mostly just turn bowls, so please bear that in mind. I used to use a scraper quite a bit, to "improve" the surface on the inside of bowls. Then later (and after a bit of tuition) I kind of got the hang of the gouge better, could sharpen it better as well, and pretty much gave up on the scrapers for bowls. I will still use one sometimes if I get ripples in the middle, but if I do I'll finish it off with a cut from the gouge.

I use a scraper sometimes on endgrain (boxes, goblets type of stuff), but with it at about 45 degrees. Mostly when I'm doing that kind of stuff I keep switching between that, a spindle gouge, and a Sorby RS200. Mostly I don't really like any of them, give up and turn something else. (I tend to get lots of tearout with all of them).

I suppose it depends what you're doing.

Cheers,

Dod
 
Hi Steve.

IMO scrapers are just another tool in your arsenal, you occasionally come across some woods that will finish no other way. If the job needs a scraper, use one. I would use what ever tool it takes to get the job finished that I am on. You will often get some saying that they never use a scraper, but if you looked I bet you could find one hanging in their workshop. :whistle:

Although I will say that the proper use of a scraper is almost as hard as a gouge to get used to. I tend to just use them for shear scraping, and often just by hand not on the tool rest.

When you asked about the direction the flute should be, I presume you are talking about a gouge. With a spindle or bowl gouge with ground back wings the flute is always in the way of travel unless you are using the lower wing to shear cut. With a bowl gouge with a straight across grind you can use it with the flute pointing to the side so as you use a side cut. All these cuts are a bit advanced, but a really easy once shown and you get a bit of practice in.

Hope this helped a little.
 
gasman, I have it on good authority that the scraper is a vital part of a turners kit. Bill Grumbline a US turner of repute says that when turners say if you use a scraper you are not a real turner has only one word for them "HOGWASH" They were invented before goughes, and I also use them. :wink: :wink: REgards Boysie
 
Steve

Use whatever tools give you the best finish

I use scrapers to cut away end grain tear out on some woods

I always use them in a trailing position with the cutting edge lower then the tool rest

Remember , always get the best finish you can with your tools , this results in very little sanding to achieve a 100% end result , anything less in my opinion is failure , it has to be a 100% finish not 90% and that will do :wink:
 
Use whichever tool works best for you (within reason - don't use a roughing gouge for bowl work, even if you manage to do it successfully a couple of times).

A bowl gouge will usually give a better surface than a scraper for cross grain work because it is a slicing type cut.
However, there are some woods that respond better to scraping - if you try to use a gouge on lignum vitae it will often chip out pieces and not cut well. In addition, because it's very oily the bevel will often build up a residue that makes it bump on the surface. I was turning some yesterday and got a much better finish with a scraper. I achieved this with regular scraping as well as shear scraping.

Steve - where abouts are you in Yorkshire - there's probably a local club that you can go to that would help. And don't think that you're not good enough to join a club - every one there will have been at the same point as you are now and will understand what you are going through.
 
If I was told I had to get rid of all my bowlturning tools except five - I would pick a 3/8 inch bowl gouge and 4 scrapers!

If you watch 10 videos (or speak to 10 different turners) you will get 10 different ways of doing things.

Bowl turning, in my short experience, (and here I am talking about doing it for enjoyment rather than as an apprentice) is not like miniature model engineering - you
are not dealing with tolerance of microns and you should go with whatever works.
It is a lot more like painting than engineering - an art, not a science.

I always get nervous when I hear some self proclaimed expert on a video telling me that there is only one "proper" way to turn and it is the way that they do it....
Some people seem to be obsessive about correct bevel angles and doing everything exactly as they have been taught, others just go their own way.
I lasted about a week before I went through and completely re-ground all my turning tools to my own liking.

As long as you are turning SAFELY, everything else is - take advice, try it and if it doesn't work for you, change it.
 
Steve,
I go along with Alan (Blister) says, using it in the trailing position with the blade edge lower than the rest.
IMO though, and this is how my scrapers are:
the angle of the edge is very small, it has a slight bow in it, then after grinding, the top is flattened on a diamond stone.
The edge is then 'ticketed' as you would a cabinet scraper.
Then used with the lightest of touches. Effective even on end grain.
John. B
 
I am mostly a bowl turner. A few years back, I started fooling around with scrapers on my bowls because I knew that some turners used only scrapers on their bowls and they looked as good as mine. A scraper is now my primary roughing tool on bowls, and I prefer it as a shear cutting tool as well. I have never been able to get the 'drop the handle and use the swept back edge of the gouge' cut to work well for me. The scraper just works better for me. For a roughing cut, keep the scraper flat on your tool rest. For finish cuts and clean up, keep it at a 45 or so degree angle for a shear cut, which is much cleaner than a scraping cut. One advantage of using the scraper for roughing is that it deflects the shavings up over the top of your hand rather than across the top of your little finger, which after a long day of turning can be rather irritating.

Note here, as far as I am concerned, 'shear scrape' is not accurate, you can do a shear cut and a scraping cut with any cutting tool out there, gouges, scrapers, skews, ets. You can also do a shear cut with the same tools. You really can't shear scrape, but you can use a scraper to shear cut. Personal rant now done.

Using a scraper to clean up what you have done with your gouge is not wrong. The thing to remember is that with practice you will get better with your tools, and there is a point where you can't do any more with what you have, so time to move on, and remember that the next one will be better. How many times have you heard the story about "I made one last cut and...... disaster. A scraper used for a shear cut will do wonders for cleaning up things that you can't quite get done with your gouge. As with any shear cut, this is clean up and not stock removal, so it will take a number of very light cuts. I prefer a scraper that is swept back on the left side for both inside and out side the bowl. A round nose scraper can do both as well, and you only need a round nose if you are mounting on a waste block and/or face plate and turning both the inside and out side of the bowl with out reversing and remounting to turn the inside. This is why they call a scraper that is swept back on the right side an 'outside scraper'. For me, I sharpen to a fairly blunt 80 degree angle or so. I use the burr from the grinder rather than burnishing one on the scraper. I do use a finer custom grinding wheel on my scrapers (CBN-cubic boric nitride compound). I do hone off the old burr before putting a new one on. If any of you get the AAW magazine, they just did an article on scraper edges, and the conclusion was that the best cutting edge (checked with a fine microscope on both the steel, and on some popolar cuttings) was that the cleanest cutting edge comes by honing off the top edge, then raising a burr with a diamond hone. I am still experimenting with this, but feel that my grinder burr is better.

I do prefer a gouge cut finish, but can never seem to get a final cut with no ridges or small lines that need to be taken out either by sanding or shear cuts. I am getting better, and have done a few pieces that need only minimal sanding. I always start sanding at 120 grit. I turn green to final thickness, let them dry and warp, then sand and finish. It seems like any small marks from cutting get bigger when drying. Never figured out why. I do round over the heel of the gouge for the finish cuts on the inside of a bowl. This has done wonders to improve the cut there. The inside has always been more difficult for me, and apparently for most other turners. This rounding over, or even grinding a secondary bevel (removing about half or the flat part of the grind) has done more to clean up the inside cut than anything else I have ever tried. Saves at least one grit of sandpaper. I do roll the flutes slightly away from the cut (to the left on the outside, and to the right on the inside) when finish cutting.

robo hippy
 
Thanks for the replies chaps.
So I can carry on using em` with a clear conscience :lol:
I have been grinding my scrapers on the grinder in the usual position top side up (if that makes sense?) but have recently been advised to sharpen them upside down leaving a slight burr on the top side to get a smoother cut anyone grind them like that?
Regards
Steve
 
up until a couple of years ago i had scrapers but never used them as i found they caused more trouble than they solved. but then i started using negative rake scrapers- they work brillantly for me and i use them most days. heres a pic
DSCF4016.jpg

DSCF4017.jpg

these type of scrapers rely upon the burr left from the dry grinder.
 
Not seen scrapers ground like that before - what's the apparent advantage?

Turning the scraper over on the grinder to get the burr on the top does make sense - will try that out.

I've seen a scraper burnisher from Veritas on the Axminster & Rutlands sites - hoped to have a look at it for real at Harrogate but no-one had it in stock ... has anyone used this sort of thing? A gimic?

Cheers

Toby
 
Mornin' all.

I've only got one scraper ground with a negative rake, the rest are still normal grind. I found that when working inside a hollow pot the negative rake saved you having to have the handle "higher than the cutting tip" as is normally suggested. The ground off top edge gives you the trailing rake you require to stop the tool snatching, but saves you having to have the handle "higher than the cutting tip" and lets you work with the tool horizontal on the tool rest. Very handy when working through a narrow opening when you can't trail the edge because of the small neck opening.

Also softer timbers seem to work well with a decent raised burr, but I have found that some of the harder woods work better with the burr honed off. If you can't get a good cut with your scraper, it is worth trying it without the burr, it may just work.
 
I have seen the burnisher, but never tried it. Saw one demo where the guy claimed that you couldn't raise a burr with a regular burnisher like used on the card scrapers used in flat work. I have a triangle burnisher, and it raised a good burr (brute strength does come in handy some times), but I still prefer the one I get from my grinding wheel.
robo hippy
 
Just some obvious points about scrapers when used to clean up the inside of a bowl:

If you're down to the intended wall thickness, bowl flex prevents you from bringing the scraper all the way to the rim. You'll hear the thrumming start and that's giving you a spiral texture. So you need either clean gouge cuts to start with up there or alternate hollowing with cleaning up stepwise as you go down.

Don't use more than a third or a half of the scraper edge in contact with the wood. Catches are likely if you do.

Just as a btw, when you look at microscopic images of a scraper edge off the grinder, you see a jagged line of points like saw teeth. This is what does the cutting, so the scraper is just a specialised cutting tool.
 
I've always found scrapers to be an asset in turning over the years as a blind turner and artist in wood. in particular a certain scraper. well lets just say part of my life has involved making my own chisels, scrapers and unique cutters and tooling over the years.

My main scrapers were hand made and tempered over various stages to get the right intensity of steel, then ground and cut to specific profiles including a unique profile designed for glass like finishing of hardwoods. forget SORBY hardwood scrapers which are rediculous and out of the size ranges for certain work, mine had 30 inch long solid handles with rubber coatings for grip, interchangeable head design and special grinds which took the best part of 3 hours to get right lol

so yes scrapers are an advantage and a must have in a turner's armory as well as 8 or so rolls of sanding paper at various grits depending on the need and the complexity of the project.

lew
 
robo hippy":38vwtmqg said:
I have seen the burnisher, but never tried it. Saw one demo where the guy claimed that you couldn't raise a burr with a regular burnisher like used on the card scrapers used in flat work. I have a triangle burnisher, and it raised a good burr (brute strength does come in handy some times), but I still prefer the one I get from my grinding wheel.
robo hippy

The Veritas burnisher raises a somewhat smoother burr than you get off a dry grinder. As you noted re the AWT article, this does a cleaner job on hard end-grain but not as clean as a burr turned up with a diamond hone. The drawback is that you need to lap the scraper top each time to want to refresh the burr.
 

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