Titebond III problem ?

[Rhossydd]

I've just unclamped a drawer glued up yesterday and the excess glue (Titebond III) is looking rather different to my previous uses of the adhesive. Rather than a hard plastic like film, it's more of a chalky residue.

A bit of Googling suggests this is due to too low a temperature when it was setting. Disappointing to say the least as it was within a couple of degrees of the minimum temperature Titebond specify for use. I'd mistakenly thought there'd be a bit of latitude there. The bottle is within it's specified shelf life and hasn't been subject to freezing, so ought to be OK otherwise.

Anyone else suffered this in the past ? If so, any comments on how badly the strength of the joint will have been compromised ? or any rescue strategy ?

It's certainly going to put me off buying it again.

 

[mseries]

I see that with Evo Stik PVA when it's too cold. I'd like to know if it has affected the strength too. Even when I glue up outside then bring the job in to cure it's done this. I don' t think the cold has affected the glue that's left in the bottle though.

 

[bourbon]

I would be almost sure this is due to low temperature. were you in the shed when you did it? It has been very cold these last few days

 

[Mr T]

Looks like it was too cold. Have you tried a little gentle tapping with a mallet to see if the joints will part.

Even when I glue up outside then bring the job in to cure it's done this.

This often doesn't work because the wood is so cold it chills the glue so it never gets to the appropriate temperature before it sets, even when brought in doors.

Chris

 

[Rhossydd]

Have you tried a little gentle tapping with a mallet to see if the joints will part.

Not yet. It supposedly takes 24hrs at room temperature to achieve full strength, so stressing it before then doesn't seem very helpful. There's also the possibility that the adhesive will have caused the pins on the dovetails to swell a little, so that needs to be allowed to be settle too.
I'll bring the drawers indoors and have a pull at the joints tomorrow and see how they hold up.

I'd be interested to hear of other people's experience of the consequences of this.

 

[Bluekingfisher]

No doubt you will have already guessed, the glue is water based, the freezing weather conditions will play havoc with such adhesives.

I'm not sure why you find the results disappointing?

 

[custard]

I use Titebond as part of my arsenal of adhesives, but I treat it with kid gloves. Keep it warm (if your workshop is unheated then store it indoors), buy smaller containers from high turnover retailers and chuck it if unused after a year or if it ever looks "stringy". Adhesives are cheap compared to materials and your labour, plus they will let you down if mistreated.

 

[Rhossydd]

I'm not sure why you find the results disappointing?

Most manufacturers allow a bit(sometimes a lot) of tolerance with the specifications for usage aspects like this. The temperatures this joint was subject to whilst setting couldn't have been within two degrees, at most, of the specified minimum.
OK, I'd expect it to take longer to harden at low temperatures, but to totally change in nature wasn't expected.

 

[Rhossydd]

I treat it with kid gloves. Keep it warm (if your workshop is unheated then store it indoors), buy smaller containers from high turnover retailers and chuck it if unused after a year or if it ever looks "stringy". Adhesives are cheap compared to materials and your labour, plus they will let you down if mistreated.

I hadn't realised it was so particular. Most other products I've used have been more robust than this seems to be.
It doesn't seem to offer significantly better performance than normal PVA on the jobs I've used it on so far. In fact it's often been harder to clean up any squeeze outs.

I think I'll go back to Cascamite and Casophen(Polyproof) for future projects.

 

[Doug B]

If you've used the glue before as you say in your opening post & it was OK & you've kept the glue frost free then it can only be that it was too cold.

A quick look at the titebond site suggests the minimum temperature to use the glue at is 8.33 degrees C when converted from Fahrenheit & last nights highest temperature was 8 degrees according to the radio this morning so it doesn't look like it's the fault of the glue & I say that as someone who doesn't like Titebond 111 & haven't used it for years.

 

[Kalimna]

Out of interest, do you have a thermometer in your workshop? If not, then how do you know that the temp was above minimum speccd?
I've had this problem with titebond original, but can't recall consequences regarding strength. (Sorry). Now, if there's a hint of a chill in the air, I glue up indoors.
I wonder if you could loosen the joint slightly (heat) and either re-do with an epoxy or wick in cyano, if you have concerns?

Cheers,
Adam

 

[Rhossydd]

Out of interest, do you have a thermometer in your workshop?

Not in the workshop last night, but a weather station at the end of the garden.
The lowest recorded value for last night here was 5C, so, from previous measurements, inside the garage would have been at least a couple of degrees warmer. Within two degrees of the specified minimum.

I wonder if you could loosen the joint slightly (heat) and either re-do with an epoxy or wick in cyano, if you have concerns?

That's the plan if there's any give in the joints tomorrow. Luckily it's only on tight fitting dovetails on drawers that won't be subject to big loads.
I guess I may get away with it and learn a lesson without much penalty.......... I hope.

 

[Rhossydd]

<update>
Had a good tug at the joints this morning and I can't pull them apart, so, for bedroom cabinet drawers, strong enough.

They've cleaned well enough and whilst checking every detail I found a small blob of glue I'd missed when assembling the joints. The blob was more as expected, darker and looking like plastic, so it looks like only the thinly smeared wiper off suffered and chalked up.

The joints aren't perfect, but acceptable to me for a first attempt at dovetailing for furniture.

Thanks for the comments