Bingo. That's what I've always taken it to be. Wouldn't be the first feather that survived for a long while merely because of tradition or convention!Cheshirechappie":2la5rv7j said:
Oh can we, pleeeease?Cheshirechappie":2la5rv7j said:
Thewlis pincers - and a bit of Thewlis history.
- Thread starter Cheshirechappie
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bourbon
Established Member
If you look closely
http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTop ... penter.jpg
http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTop ... penter.jpg
Cheshirechappie
Established Member
ED65":xtlxrzm7 said:
No. NO!
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Oh, all right then - but only if you promise to start a new thread about it.....
Cheshirechappie
Established Member
bourbon":2761pu6c said:
Erm - not quite sure what to make of this. There's a pair of pincers on the wall rack - about third tool from the right - but not enough detail to tell anything else about them.
Am I missing something?
Picking up on the thought of gas piping, I thought at first that sounded a likely place for swaging, on lead pipes which were quite slim, much smaller than lead water pipes. Unsurprisingly, books are often aimed at amateurs, and amateur gas fitters don't survive long enough to explain their methods. Even "Every Man His Own Mechanic" warns that it's really a job for the professionals. It does give a brief description of enlarging one end of a pipe so you could fit another end into it, but says that this was done with boxwood cones (just like water pipe). It doesn't suggest that the amateur could swage the end with the knob or cone on the end of his pliers.
I've not found any written description of a purpose for the knob, or the cone, which looks harder to make. I'm leaning towards the suggestion that it was just traditional.
I thought this picture was interesting. It's from a 1950s catalogue issued by the Hardware Trades Journal. It's a useful one, as it doesn't just list one vendor's products. It's aimed at people running hardware shops, explaining what tools exist, so they could decide what to stock for their customers.
It seems to be saying that there were entrenched ideas of what pincers ought to look like, varying by country:
I expect someone will be wondering how old pincers are. The answer seems to be at least as old as the Romans, as shown in Henry Mercer's book on "Ancient Carpenters' Tools" available here https://hdl.handle.net/2027/uc1.b4494310 which has this picture. Exhibit (C) seems to have a cone on the end of one handle! (Rather a long time before gas lighting.)
I've not found any written description of a purpose for the knob, or the cone, which looks harder to make. I'm leaning towards the suggestion that it was just traditional.
I thought this picture was interesting. It's from a 1950s catalogue issued by the Hardware Trades Journal. It's a useful one, as it doesn't just list one vendor's products. It's aimed at people running hardware shops, explaining what tools exist, so they could decide what to stock for their customers.
It seems to be saying that there were entrenched ideas of what pincers ought to look like, varying by country:
I expect someone will be wondering how old pincers are. The answer seems to be at least as old as the Romans, as shown in Henry Mercer's book on "Ancient Carpenters' Tools" available here https://hdl.handle.net/2027/uc1.b4494310 which has this picture. Exhibit (C) seems to have a cone on the end of one handle! (Rather a long time before gas lighting.)
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Cheshirechappie
Established Member
Hmm. Maybe the cone is helpful in repairing one's armour if you're a legionary. Not sure why Thewlis were still making that design 1800 years later - maybe they didn't know either!
As said, i was trained to make joints in lead piping back in the early 60's. We used boxwood cones (looked just like childrens spinning tops) and hammers to expand the pipe to allow joints to be soldered.
the smallest lead pipe I saw used was a 1/2" bore.
Early gas light piping was smaller, but i have never seen it small enough to need a 10 mm swager.
the smallest lead pipe I saw used was a 1/2" bore.
Early gas light piping was smaller, but i have never seen it small enough to need a 10 mm swager.
bourbon
Established Member
no, your not missing anything. I just posted it to show that pincers are an early inventionCheshirechappie":291n40h2 said:
Cheshirechappie
Established Member
bourbon":2ea8433d said:
Ah! I see - fair point, reinforced by Andy's post with the Roman pincers. I've no idea when pincers were invented, but my guess would be very shortly after the invention of nails. I know the Romans used nails in vast quantities, but as far as I can tell, the Egyptians didn't, so maybe the nail is a Greek or Assyrian idea?
Edit to add - Ooops, wrong! Apparently, the Egyptians were using bronze nails as long ago as 3,400BC. I don't think Thewlis were making pincers then, though!
Cheshirechappie
Established Member
An update just to add a small piece of information I found online in a trade catalogue for Warrington dated 1871. The address for Thewlis and Griffith is Phoenix Works, 55 Mersey Street, Warrington. Shaw Thewlis' home address was given as Bank Quay (I think his residence was on what is now Old Liverpool Road). I do know that later, he moved to Latchford House on Knutsford Road, which even today is quite 'leafy'.
They were still there in 1895. So far, I haven't found any later directories online.
Mersey Street is very much part of old Warrington, so from this finding, I don't think the works was large. It probably had a street frontage about the length of not much more than 40 feet or so, but stretched back a good bit further. If it followed the pattern of other Lancashire tool, clock and watch premises, it may have been a two-storey affair, with blacksmiths on the ground floor, and finishing trades on the first.
They were still there in 1895. So far, I haven't found any later directories online.
Mersey Street is very much part of old Warrington, so from this finding, I don't think the works was large. It probably had a street frontage about the length of not much more than 40 feet or so, but stretched back a good bit further. If it followed the pattern of other Lancashire tool, clock and watch premises, it may have been a two-storey affair, with blacksmiths on the ground floor, and finishing trades on the first.
I don't know if it was still the case in the late Victorian period, but in the early 19th century when the likes of Peter Stubs were doing rather well in the Lancashire tool trade, there was a strong pattern of tools being made by small scale outworkers, known as "country hands." Tools were made in cottage workshops then gathered in to a named "manufacturer" who inspected them, marked them with his brand and sold them.
If Thewlis was using this system, their works could be far smaller than would have been needed for all the tools sold with their name on.
With Stubs, whose fame rested on files, only saw files and clock hands were made in their own workshops. All the rest of their range - other files, clock parts and general tools (including pincers) were made by country hands.
If Thewlis was using this system, their works could be far smaller than would have been needed for all the tools sold with their name on.
With Stubs, whose fame rested on files, only saw files and clock hands were made in their own workshops. All the rest of their range - other files, clock parts and general tools (including pincers) were made by country hands.
Cheshirechappie
Established Member
AndyT":1kni95g1 said:
Ah - now, I'm glad you mentioned Peter Stubs and saw files, because I've got a whole new thread coming up on them, once I've done a bit more reading. There's also the wider question of Lancashire pattern tools in general....
Cheshirechappie
Established Member
AndyT":lr3pmrde said:
'Peter Stubs and the Lancashire Hand Tool Industry' by E. Surrey Dane. Very good on watch and clock tools and saw files, but not so much on other Lancashire tools. Mind you, I've not finished reading it yet.....
Cheshirechappie
Established Member
More than somewhat ..... which is one reason why I haven't quite finished it.
