Tapering/Barrelling Arrow shafts anyone done it?

[hivez]

Can anyone help with a sugguestion on how I can put a taper on an archery arrow shaft (not the normal nock/point taper). The arrow is Port Orford Cedar 30" long 11/32" diameter and I want to barrell the shaft so it is tapered down to 5/16" for 4" at each end. I need a set up that does them all exactly the same else the arrows start giving different results. I've read about converting a table saw into a disc sander but can't find these in the uk (CMT Balance blade) or perhaps someone has made a jig or can sugguest one.

Thanks Dave

 

[xy mosian]

Hi,

I used to be a bit of an archer myself, recurve, aluminium arrows. Never did quite make it to long bow sadly.

Now some stick chair makers use a device, rounder I think, to produce the round! legs etc. From memory there is an adjustable version which will do just that. Of course a lathe is needed and the thing is used 'by eye' to gauge the taper.

I'm in the middle of a saw sharpening session at the moment, perhaps the name will come to me during the afternoon. If not I'll do some research this evening. Of course there is always grinding with paper but that is much less satisfying.

I'll be back.

xy.

 

[frugal]

Can anyone help with a sugguestion on how I can put a taper on an archery arrow shaft (not the normal nock/point taper). The arrow is Port Orford Cedar 30" long 11/32" diameter and I want to barrell the shaft so it is tapered down to 5/16" for 4" at each end. I need a set up that does them all exactly the same else the arrows start giving different results. I've read about converting a table saw into a disc sander but can't find these in the uk (CMT Balance blade) or perhaps someone has made a jig or can sugguest one.

Thanks Dave

Ok, I have to ask why? I have seen barrelled shafts on some replica medieval shafts but they were a lot more than 11/32 at the widest point.

We have a copy of Toxopholis and the Grey Goose Wing in the other room, I will have a look later for arrow construction, but I can not get to them just yet as I have a small child pinning one arm to the chair

In general as shafts were made by planning the corners off of square blank then I would guess that you just need to work on the ends more than the centres.

 

[Digit]

Excuse my ignorance, but why?

Roy.

 

[hivez]

Hi thanks for the replies Its commonly belived by some archers that tapering assists all things from the release to areodynamics and associated distance improvements some think its aload of tosh, myself I'd just like to try it and do it justice by having them all the same. Another website I read is Archery Interchange where someone on there does it by marking off 2" pencil lines then sanding them off then 4" then 6" etc. I just wondered if anyone could think of a better way or had done it before. Would something like a Veritas Chair Devil be any good for this, it looks lovely but I've no idea if its good for tapering. I also thought of large disc sander but seemed expensive for my trial.

Cheers Dave

 

[misterfish]

I've never seen a sanding disk attachment for a table saw in the UK. As you mention CMT do the balance blade and Rigid do a sanding disk for table saws but I can't find any in the UK.

My DeWalt radial arm saw has a sanding disk attachment (10" diameter) that screws onto the end of the arbor in place of the blade but this would not fit a table saw and to use it with the RAS involves building a support assembly the work.

As you are only needing a 4" taper why not look on Ebay for a used belt and disc sander - some used ones go for a low price.

Misterfish

 

[xy mosian]

Ok! The device I was thinking of is called a 'Trap'. Shown in Salaman p.196. However for a set of arrows 8?, it is quite a bit of work to make one.

How about a spokeshave and rudimentary shave horse? For shave horse read vice.

Sorry having re-read your original post. A long pencil sharpener springs to mind. Or a planing jig for use with a block plane perhaps?

xy

 

[Grinding One]

A Mark Five has a sanding attachment in the saw blade configureation.Look up Shopsmith for sanding disk attachment.

 

[frugal]

Hi thanks for the replies Its commonly belived by some archers that tapering assists all things from the release to areodynamics and associated distance improvements some think its aload of tosh, myself I'd just like to try it and do it justice by having them all the same.

I would love to see some scientific evidence for this. I can understand that it might have a small improvement if you are using carbon shafts for high end competition work. To be honest with 11/32" cedar (and I am going to assume 4" turkey feathers and a brass bullet point target head), I would expect the straightness of the shaft; the positioning of the fletchings and the tightness of the knock to have far more impact.

Interestingly enough, I have looked through all of the historical books on Archery in the house and I can find no reference to the construction of the shaft other than which woods to make them out of. Then again there was apparently only one shaft that has surviced the past 500 years without rotting away, but all of our text books are pre-Mary Rose.

 

[frugal]

Hi thanks for the replies Its commonly belived by some archers that tapering assists all things from the release to areodynamics and associated distance improvements some think its aload of tosh, myself I'd just like to try it and do it justice by having them all the same.

Google provides (please note that none of the pages I found cited sources, so they could be pulling numbers out of the air for all I know).

The Mary Rose arrows were either:

- Tapered from 1/2" diameter at the point to 3/8" at the nock

- Parallel sided 7/16" in diameter

The Westminster Abbey Arrow was:

- 10/32" at the knock, 14/32" in the middle and 13/32" at the point.

I wonder just how the arrow being thicker in the middle affects the archers paradox (the fact that the string of the bow is drawn directly back from the grip, but the point of the arrow is off to one side, yet the arrow travels stright forward from the bow due to flex in the arrow shaft and it fishtailing as it is released).

I also wonder how much the different thicknesses of the arrows at different points along their length has to do with improving the areodynamics, and how much has to do with the skill of the fletcher. I know when using a plane or a drawknife I tend to take more off of the ends than the middle :wink:

 

[frugal]

Hives,

I was at the Tewksbury Medieval fair this weekend and I came across this book: Secrets of the English Longbow which has the best descriptions of construction arrows I have seen in any book so far.

I have not read the sections on bow making, or forging arrow heads, I was too interested in the shafts after this thread

 

[Benchwayze]

Not knowing much more about archery, than how to draw a bow and loose an arrow, why are arrows tapered? Why not just have them the same thickness throughout?

Is it to do with the need for more weight at the lethal end, to assist in flight? I suppose there was no need for absolute accuracy on the battlefield. Wasn't the idea to let fly with a 'barrage' in a high trajectory, meaning accuracy of range was more important than 'targeting individuals'.

All supposition on my part of course.

Regards John

 

[DMD]

Just an idea from my pencil making days, two pieces of timber hinged at one edge with abrasive glued on both faces and another piece of wood as spacer at the non hinge end, ok so like a jaw. The spacer can adjusted for diameter of finished piece or as requested a taper can be produced i presume if you fiddle with the hinge. I used this on a lathe but cannot see why it would not work manually, good for the wrist mustles.

 

[frugal]

Not knowing much more about archery, than how to draw a bow and loose an arrow, why are arrows tapered? Why not just have them the same thickness throughout?

Is it to do with the need for more weight at the lethal end, to assist in flight? I suppose there was no need for absolute accuracy on the battlefield. Wasn't the idea to let fly with a 'barrage' in a high trajectory, meaning accuracy of range was more important than 'targeting individuals'.

There are two sorts of archery: modern target archery and good old fashioned kill the other guys before they stab you with pointy things archery.

For warfare archery what you cared about was being able to loose and hit a certain range rather than a particular individual (if you did not hit Alphonse you hit Francois by his side). So most practice was done to learn how to drop an arrow at a certain range (clout shooting).

You are right that high trajectory barrages were the order of the day. Like any other projectile an arrow will follow a parabolic arc, so in order to get the furthest distance you need to loose at 45 degrees. As the enemy get closer you drop the angle which will mean that the arrows fly at a flatter arc, until eventually you are loosing pretty much straight at the target (which in warfare means you have probably lost if they have got that close to your archers).

The heavier the arrow the shorter the distance you can shoot it. the larger the fletchings the more drag, the larger the arrowhead the more point heavy it is and the shorter the distance.

However, putting more of the weight at the front of the arrow will increase the impact when it hits that target and thus give it more penetrating power. If you put more weight at the back by making the shaft thicker at the back then the point will hit and the back end will try to keep moving forwards as it has more kinetic energy and more than likely cause the shaft to flex and the point to deflect off.

The strange thing about archery is that the arrow does not leave the bow in the direction of travel. If you hold an arrow ready to be loosed you will have the bowstring pulled out directly behind the bowstave and the nock of the arrow on the string. However the head of the arrow is held on the side of the bowstave, so if you draw a line from the nock of the arrow to the back of the bow and then from the knock of the arrow to the point of the arrow they will be different by about 5 degrees. However when you loose the arrow it flies in a line from the string to the bow, not in the direction that the arrow was pointing.

This is referred to as the archers paradox. what is happening is that as the string is loosed it imparts a huge amount of energy into the arrow. The arrow being made of wood flexes slightly as it is loosed which causes it to bend around the bow (in fact it wobbles most of the way to the target). The thickness of the wood determines the amount of flex. The amount of flex should be tailored to the draw weight of the bow. So for a big 120lb warbow the shafts were about 1/2" thick. A half inch thick ash arrow is pretty heavy, especially when you stick a lump of iron on one end. It was discovered that the flex of the bow was determined by the middle of the arrow, so you caould have a shaft that was 1/2" in the middle and only 3/8" at the ends which made it a bit lighter, but it still flexed like a 1/2" shaft.

So you can make arrows straight, barreled (so that they are thicker in the middle to reduce weight whilst keeping a low flex), or breasted (thicker at the head to add more punch to the impact). There were also some that were Chested (thicker at the fletchings), although I don't know why.

At Crecy there were 6,000 English archers, each loosing 12 shafts per minute. At 200 yards you can probably get at least 2 in the air at any one time (may be 3 if you are lucky or good). At any point there were between 12,000 and 18,000 arrows in the air. With 6000 archers it takes 7 minutes to loose half a million arrows. So take a moment to think about the poor sods who had to slog up a muddy battlefield into an arrow storm.

 

[StarGazer]

Having done both target and longbox archery in the past, Frugal is correct. The arrow should be tuned to the bow to overcome the effect of archers paradox. To get consistent trajectories over varying distances to the target you want the effect of the fishtailing arrow to stop as soon as possible. Without a tuned bow/arrow if you stand 10m in front of the target and aim at the top of the target then release an arrow. Step back 5 paces and repeat, then another 5 paces and repeat etc. With an untuned bow you get a S shaped curve of arrows down the target (as you move back the arrows hit progressively further down the target despite always aiming at the top). In a well tuned target bow the fishtailing has stopped within 10m of leaving the bow and you get a straight vertical line. Too stiff or whippy an arrow you will get a curve either side of vertical rather than a straight line or S shape.

To tune the bow and arrow combination for a recurve bow involves the stiffness (ie diameter and length and head weight) of the arrow shaft and the arrow rest/compensator. With a longbow you do not have the compensator so you can tune a given weight of arrow by barrelling the shaft and keeping the arrow head weight the same.

In warfare as Frugal has pointed out this is not so critical but for target and field archery where you take much greater care and retrieve your arrows then it is much more important.

 

[Benchwayze]

Hi Frugal - Stargazer,

That was most interesting chaps, and I thank you.

Sure wouldn't want to have been Alphonse or Francois! I wouldn't have enjoyed being a Fletcher or an Arrowmaker either come to that. Having to keep production going at that time would have been a (No I won't say it!) experience.

Much the same principle as launching the 'Limbo' bombs at a submarine then 'Up and over in a parabola'! as we used to say. Great stuff to read though fellas and I quite got the shivers thinking about all the arrows! What must that have sounded like to the French?

Gave me goose-bumps thinking about our guys at Agincourt though. Now I'm of to surf that battle!


Thanks again.
Regards
John V So that's where Churchill got his salute! :wink:

 

[woodbloke]

Just to add my 2 euros worth to Frugal's very interesting analysis. I have a book on the development of firearms where part of the introduction deals with weapons prior to, or in use at the same time as the introduction of gunpowder to the battlefield. One section tells of the aftermath of a battle somewhere in Wales where a shaft from a longbow was found embedded to a depth of 4" in an oak church door. Another part mentions that it was recorded somewhere that a rider in full plate armour on a horse was hit in the thigh by a shaft from longbow. It went through the plate armour, through his thigh and armour again on the other side, through the saddle and then deep into the horse :shock: :shock:
I know very little about archery but I recollect that the nasty bit on an arrow was a solid iron triangular bodkin shape that was slightly bigger than the max diameter of the shaft (causing less resistance as it penetrated) so in effect they were shooting armour piercing arrows...nice - Rob

 

[frugal]

I know very little about archery but I recollect that the nasty bit on an arrow was a solid iron triangular bodkin shape that was slightly bigger than the max diameter of the shaft (causing less resistance as it penetrated) so in effect they were shooting armour piercing arrows...nice - Rob

There were many different kinds of arrowheads (Arrow heads by Hector Cole). Each one was designed for a different purpose. There was the general warhead point (or Type 16 as it is known today) whcih was mainly used against lightly armoured troops or for hunting game.

When chainmail was added to the troops armour this was fairly effective at stopping the Type 16s, so they created the long bodkin (or Type 10) which was designed to go between the links in the chain and split them as it pushed its' way through. In response the armourers double and triple linked the chain to make it tighter, so the arrow point makers made the points longer and so the long bodkin developed into the needle bodkin (or type 7).

In response to this the armourers started to use more plates of armour, to which the arrow head makers shortened the point into the balista or square bodkin which has a point like a small pyramid. This has a short point that widens very quickly to a size just larger than the width of the shaft, so that when it hits, it peels back 4 triangles of metal on the armour and then there is nothing to stop the arrow from going further until the fletchings at the back. When you compare the shape of the balista bodkin with the shape of a modern armour piercing round, they are almost identical, rqapidly widening point that is as wide as the rest of the projectile.

During demonstrations we regularly put needle bodkins through chain, and balista bodkins through steel plate. An archer called Simon Stanley for a TV programme put a balista bodkin from a 120lb bow through a steel breastplate, through the padded jack under the breastplate, through the straw dummy, through the back of the padded jack, and through the back plate. The arrow was left hanging out of the back of the armour by the fletchings. I have seen an arrow be put through a car door, and I have heard numerous tales of arrows being put through bullet proof glass... filming of one of the Robin Hood films being the common one.

 

[bugbear]

Hives,

I was at the Tewksbury Medieval fair this weekend and I came across this book: Secrets of the English Longbow which has the best descriptions of construction arrows I have seen in any book so far.

Judging from the description it's very specific to the war-bow.

If barreling (and other techniques) are associated with (e.g.) Victorian long bow target archery, I'd guess it won't be covered.

IIRC the Traditional Bowyers Bible (in three volumes) covers barrelled and footed arrows, but I couldn't swear to it - I bought, and avidly read them a few years back.

Or try these guys:

http://www.stickbow.com/

(beware USA libertarian politics!)

BugBear