Steam bending Walnut

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Toscageoff

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Greetings

John Boddy's site says that European Walnut has very good steam bending properties.

I have not steamed wood before and I want to bend approx 1200mm of 12mm x12mm into a tight arc - not quite as tight as a "C".

Laminations are not an option.

What would be the best thing to use as a steamer - drainpipe?

How long would the wood need to be steamed?

TIA
 
Hi,

I made a box from OSB and WBP ply fed from an Aldi wall paper striper works great and cost next to nothing.

Pete
 
A drainpipe and a wallpaper stripper is ideal. you will need to steam for quite few hours, for a small piece like this perhaps three might be worth a try, if it is not enough then do it for longer, keep it under cramps until the timber has dried out.
Derek.
 
Should be do-able, not that I've ever tried walnut. A drainpipe will work (but needs support), I use a WBP ply box.

Air-dried will work better than kilned wood. I don't think 12mm will need hours and hours - half an hour to 45 mins should do it (a general guide is an hour an inch).
 
I`ve read somewhere the hour per inch reckoning.
I`d suggest 4" soil pipe rather than drain pipe as the wall is much thicker, so less likely to distort.
Also the range of fittings for soil pipe is greater, you`ll easily get cap ends etc for it.
 
(a general guide is an hour an inch).

That upsetting it take around a year per inch to air dry Oak properly but only an hour per inch to make something bendable... I don't know many people that would stock air-dried European Walnut since its generally steamed and kiln-dried before importing.
 
It's not the water in the steam penetrating the wood that does the job, really, it's mostly the heat acting on the water already in the wood (the wet stuff stops the heat drying the timber out as much if not more than actually raising the moisture content that much, apart from the very outer layer). You can't actually get the water back in the cells by steaming very effectively.

I was thinking of us as European, and European walnut as 'not ABW' - sloppy. All that steaming to hide the sapwood, hey.
 
Yup, thats what steaming for... they also do it to Pear to lower the contrast between the sapwood and the heartwood. We recently took delivery of some steamed Elm which is quite nice.
 
Jake":wr4az4z2 said:
It's not the water in the steam penetrating the wood that does the job, really, it's mostly the heat acting on the water already in the wood

If you are saying that heating the water that is already in the wood is what makes it flexible enough to bend, that is not really the full story.

It's primarily the lignin that needs to get hot and soft so that the wood will bend and it is the cooled lignin that holds the wood in the new shape. Lignin is the 'glue' that holds the cells together. Soften the lignin with heat and the fibres can slip and rearrange themselves into the new form. As soon as the lignin starts cooling it begins to harden and stiffen and, once fully cool, it sets locking the form. It is this property of lignin that is taken advantage of by kiln operators during the final conditioning stages of kiln drying wood; they use it to relieve the case hardening induced during earlier stages in the kilning process.

There is some cell distortion that has an effect on the bending, but evidence of cell failure and disruption is soon apparent through compression fractures on the inside of the curve and tension causes the wood to rip apart on the outside of the curve. This where the use of a restraining strap and end stops comes in because it moves the neutral axis from the centre of the bend in the wood to the outside convex face. Everything on the concave side of the neutral axis in a steam bent piece of wood experiences compression stress and everything outside the neutral axis experiences tensile stress.

Wood cells can withstand compression stress on the concave face of the curve much, much better than the tensile stress found on the outside convex face; hence the use of the strap and stops for many steam bending tasks, although there are times where a strap is omitted in, for example, 'free' bending used to make traditional wooden forms such as snow shows. Slainte.
 
Where else but this forum could you find education like that. :D

Nice one, SD,

Regards,

Rich.
 
Sgian Dubh":1ee1zzzj said:
Jake":1ee1zzzj said:
It's not the water in the steam penetrating the wood that does the job, really, it's mostly the heat acting on the water already in the wood

If you are saying that heating the water that is already in the wood is what makes it flexible enough to bend, that is not really the full story.

It's primarily the lignin that needs to get hot and soft so that the wood will bend and it is the cooled lignin that holds the wood in the new shape. Lignin is the 'glue' that holds the cells together. Soften the lignin with heat and the fibres can slip and rearrange themselves into the new form. As soon as the lignin starts cooling it begins to harden and stiffen and, once fully cool, it sets locking the form. It is this property of lignin that is taken advantage of by kiln operators during the final conditioning stages of kiln drying wood; they use it to relieve the case hardening induced during earlier stages in the kilning process.

There is some cell distortion that has an effect on the bending, but evidence of cell failure and disruption is soon apparent through compression fractures on the inside of the curve and tension causes the wood to rip apart on the outside of the curve. This where the use of a restraining strap and end stops comes in because it moves the neutral axis from the centre of the bend in the wood to the outside convex face. Everything on the concave side of the neutral axis in a steam bent piece of wood experiences compression stress and everything outside the neutral axis experiences tensile stress.

To be fair, I wasn't really trying to tell the whole story. You place a lot of stress above on the effect of heat (alone) on the lignin, which is all right and proper, but it could be read to imply that steaming a low moisture content plank is as effective as steaming a high-moisture content plank - which isn't the case in my experience.

What I was saying was limited to the fact (?) that the internal moisture makes for a more effective heat transfer mechanism than the external moisture (at least for most of the thickness of the plank).

The kiln-drying bit is interesting - what do they do exactly to relieve case hardening? Inject steam?

I did loads of experimenting with this stuff for a wooden ceiling which bends around a curve to become a wall* , and one of the things I noticed was that re-steaming and bending seemed less successful than first time bends. I assume the lignin can only take so much, or was that my mind playing tricks?

(*in fact, I ended up veneering over the curve because the bargain recycled tropical hardwood flooring I ended up with was almost *totally* non-steam bendable)
 
Jake":2uxnypnc said:
To be fair, I wasn't really trying to tell the whole story. You place a lot of stress above on the effect of heat (alone) on the lignin, which is all right and proper, but it could be read to imply that steaming a low moisture content plank is as effective as steaming a high-moisture content plank - which isn't the case in my experience..

It’s well known that steam bending is easier to do with green wood, i.e., wood at FSP. The next most compliant wood for steam bending is air dried material (between 18%-25% MC) and, least easily steam bent, is wood that has been dried to 6% or 7% MC; this is because wood kilned to 7% MC, the north American standard has become much stiffer and, due to a form of hysteresis, it is quite difficult to make wood soft and pliable again once it has reached this level of dryness and stiffness. Green wood at the time of introducing steam to it is already relatively soft and flexible compared to very dry kilned wood. Probably the best choice for steam bending is air dried wood at about 18-23%MC. This is because if very wet wood is bent, i.e., wood well above FSP with significant quantities of liquid in the cell cavities, the bending can cause bursting of the cell walls as any fully charged cells compress and disrupt. Such disruption leads to unnecessary loss of strength in the wood, which is undesirable. There’s less cell wall damage caused during the bending process if there’s ‘wiggle’ room inside the cell itself due to it being empty—the condition that air dried wood below FSP is in.

Not only that, but compared to green wood, air dried wood has had chance to reveal some of the distortion, checking, splitting and other faults that can occur during the drying process. Selecting air dried parts for bending that are in good shape at that stage means they are likely to go through the heating, steaming and wetting process and subsequent re-drying and cooling after bending with less risk of such faults showing up in the finished bend.

The kiln-drying bit is interesting - what do they do exactly to relieve case hardening? Inject steam?

Case hardening relief takes out any case hardening stresses that have built up during drying. During early stages of the drying process the shell of the wood tries to shrink as it loses moisture. It’s prevented from doing so by the core of the timber which is still wet and full size. By the end of the drying process the wood should be equally dry throughout and the core will have shrunk. The final conditioning adds water to the shell very quickly usually through hot steam injected into the kiln. The shell attempts to swell in response to the added water, but now, because the core has shrunk this prevents swelling of the shell. This attempted later swelling of the shell mirrors the early stage efforts to shrink tighter on the core. The net effect is that the initial shrinkage and later swelling cancel each other out and the casehardening is relieved.

Throughout the casehardening relief process kiln operators check progress by taking samples out of the kiln and doing the fork or prong test, see section 9.1.2 for further discussion and illustrations. When this test indicates the wood is stress free the job is complete. If the job is not done correctly two faults are possible. Firstly the casehardening procedure may be misjudged leaving the wood still casehardened. Secondly, it’s possible to overcompensate through adding too much steam and heat leaving the wood reverse case hardened.

Higher temperatures encourage casehardening relief through softening the lignin in the wood, the ‘glue’ that holds the cellular structure together; this allows the cells to slip and rearrange themselves into a stress free condition. As the wood later cools the lignin sets again holding the rearranged cells in their new position. This high heat treatment plus steam has parallels with steam bending wood around a former to create a permanent bend. It’s generally only possible to repair casehardening in conventional kilns capable of creating the necessary heat and humidity. Low temperature dehumidification kilns and solar kilns are two types that can’t create the right conditions; to set against this limitation these latter two types of kiln are less likely to induce casehardening in the first place because they operate more gently and at lower temperatures.

Slainte.
 
Racers":1lyr7cum said:
Hi,

I made a box from OSB and WBP ply fed from an Aldi wall paper striper works great and cost next to nothing.

Pete

Did the same with £19.99 B&Q stripper - worked great
 
Hi, Tony

£19.99! money bags, mine was £14.99 :wink:

Pete
 
Racers":2ephzche said:
Hi, Tony

£19.99! money bags, mine was £14.99 :wink:

Pete

wallpaper steamer? Luxury! A small fire in the garden with an old stock pot and a length of defunkt vacuum hose... didn't work though...

AIdan
 
Sgian Dubh":2mmroqrr said:
It’s well known that steam bending is easier to do with green wood, i.e., wood at FSP. The next most compliant wood for steam bending is air dried material (between 18%-25% MC) and, least easily steam bent, is wood that has been dried to 6% or 7% MC; this is because wood kilned to 7% MC, the north American standard has become much stiffer and, due to a form of hysteresis, it is quite difficult to make wood soft and pliable again once it has reached this level of dryness and stiffness. Green wood at the time of introducing steam to it is already relatively soft and flexible compared to very dry kilned wood. Probably the best choice for steam bending is air dried wood at about 18-23%MC. This is because if very wet wood is bent, i.e., wood well above FSP with significant quantities of liquid in the cell cavities, the bending can cause bursting of the cell walls as any fully charged cells compress and disrupt. Such disruption leads to unnecessary loss of strength in the wood, which is undesirable. There’s less cell wall damage caused during the bending process if there’s ‘wiggle’ room inside the cell itself due to it being empty—the condition that air dried wood below FSP is in.

Not only that, but compared to green wood, air dried wood has had chance to reveal some of the distortion, checking, splitting and other faults that can occur during the drying process. Selecting air dried parts for bending that are in good shape at that stage means they are likely to go through the heating, steaming and wetting process and subsequent re-drying and cooling after bending with less risk of such faults showing up in the finished bend.

I take it that's a long way of saying yes?

Edit: actually, I'm not sure. You say 'it is well known' that high moisture content wood is easier to bend - which I agree with from experience and what I've read. Much of what you say above is, as you say, pretty trite knowledge, if you read the various texts, and it certainly seems to borne out in practice. I've never read an explanation of why that is the case, that I can recall.

You don't actually deal with my (implicit) question, which is *why* that would be. I'd be interested to know if you think that it is because the interior moisture simply makes for better heat transfer from the heat on the exterior (which was what I was saying in the original post you said wasn't the 'full story', and spelt out more fully in a sentence you snipped in your last response). Or, is there some other (more?) direct link between the moisture content and the elasticity of the lignin?
 
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