Public sector strikes

[Sawyer]

Speaking of 'still waiting', Roger; what about the repeated request for anything to support your own position?

You keep shouting others down whilst showing nothing - absolutely nothing back up your own arguments.

 

[Digit]

A good start would be to collect the vast amount of tax already owed (by the super-rich, not ordinary people).

Well I've followed some of this with amusement, I have seen no report that states that the vast amount of tax is owed by the super rich or any other specific groups.
The idea that the few 'super rich' people in this country could owe such a vast amount seems highly improbable to me, just how many are there? Even the two occasions when I have had problems with the tax man do not lead me to believe that HMRC are that inefficient. Also income tax is not the only form of tax evasion, some of the large figures that I've seen in the past relate to VAT, and in many cases that means the self employed, of whom there are many more than the 'super rich.'
To be honest I have yet to meet anyone who rushes around to the tax office to pay his dues. I also doubt that the class warriors would be likely to refuse a 6 figure bonus. Also with all the prees reports on bankers bonuses they would seem to be that last who could avoid the attentions of HMRC, wouldn't you say?
Blaming Maggie for the uneven wealth distribution is ludicrous. Even the Domesay book shows a greater wealth, and population, in the south. I live within sight of the Irish Sea, nobody in their right mind is going to start a business in this area that involves the inport/export of raw materials/goods, we are simply too far from the sources of the raw materials and the markets for the finished products.
That is a fact now and has been through out our history due to the proximity of Europe to the south of this country, and that wasn't anything to do with Maggie or anyone else!

Roy.

 

[Sawyer]

A good start would be to collect the vast amount of tax already owed (by the super-rich, not ordinary people).

Well I've followed some of this with amusement, I have seen no report that states that the vast amount of tax is owed by the super rich or any other specific groups.
The idea that the few 'super rich' people in this country could owe such a vast amount seems highly improbable to me, just how many are there?.

Maybe take a look at the Report of the Commons Select Committee?

According to the thoroughly right wing Daily Telegraph and D. Mail, David Hartnett; boss of HM Revenues & Customs is 'Whitehall's most wined and dined Civil Servant'

Hmm, why ever could that be? :?

He was queried by a Commons Select Committee on (among many other things) why Vodafone got let off around 6bn in tax and a dodgy arrangement with Goldman Sachs. Hartnett's lawyer was so slippery that the Select Ctte. took the extremely unusual step of placing him under oath.
Hartnett reckons that HMRC can still do its job properly after upwards of 25,000 job losses and 200 office closures. With him at the helm? Pardon my scepticism.
Now, I don't know who the benefactors were on all of the 107 times that Hartnett accepted hospitality in the period in question, but can't help suspecting that they tend to be on the rich side. Or is he in the habit of popping into cafes for lunch with cleaners on the minimum wage?

 

[Digit]

boss of HM Revenues & Customs is 'Whitehall's most wined and dined Civil Servant'

That is an allusion of corruption, were he to influence an individul tax inspector i would suggest that it would become public knowledge toot sweet, don't you think? Also he has information that he can share, legally, on, for example, the survival chances of the Euro, of value to every employer/self employed in this country, so not to expect him to be questioned, wined and dined is unrealistic.
Vodafone is a company, not an individual as you implied when you spoke of 'ordinary people.'
I see no reason why any company, or individual, 'super rich' or 'ordinary people' should be exempt from their obligations.
The report in the Telegraph does not specify any group as being worse, or better, than any other, 'super rich' or otherwise.
I also see no need for the 'right wing' badge of the Telegraph and DM, I will hazard a guess that the report was published in every newspaper, bar the Daily Star perhaps.

Roy.

 

[RogerS]

Jeez Sawyer. Don't you ever read anything before coming out with your usual rubbish? I have already given you the link to the article in the FT that quite clearly states that Vodafone paid an agreed amount of £1.25bn and still you keep bringing out this same old £6bn garbage. Are you really that much of a plonker?

 

[Digit]

For some reason that escapes me Rog you will find a small business man employing a tax expert to keep his tax as low as possible then walk into his pub and start moaning about a company or the 'super rich' for doing precisely the same thing!
It smacks of envy to me.

Roy.

 

[Sawyer]

Jeez Sawyer. Don't you ever read anything before coming out with your usual rubbish? I have already given you the link to the article in the FT that quite clearly states that Vodafone paid an agreed amount of £1.25bn and still you keep bringing out this same old £6bn garbage. Are you really that much of a plonker?

Agreed in a dodgy deal with Hartnett. Why? Agreeing to pay just a small fraction of one's tax liabilities sounds somewhat irregular to me. The Commons Select Ctte. were wondering about this too, as Vodafone were reckoned to owe the tax man about 8bn.

Not my figures, Roger - questions to Hartnett & lawyer from the Parliamentary Select Ctte.

'Rubbish', 'twaddle' 'drivel', 'cant', now 'plonker', all from somebody who had the cheek to talk about 'reasoned debate'! Clearly, abuse comes more easily to you than proper discussion, as has been shown time and again in your posts. By the way , I've been meaning to ask: UK Uncut = 'Society of Uncircumcised UK Males'. A bizarre gender/racially loaded expression. Care to explain just what you mean by it?

 

[Digit]

How do you know it was 'dodgy' may I ask? [/quote]Agreeing to pay just a small fraction of one's tax liabilities sounds somewhat irregular to me.[/quote] How do you know that that is the case please?

racially loaded expression

Oh Lord! I am Jewish Sawyer, do you wish to guess what my race is and whether I have been circumcised or not?

Roy.

 

[Sawyer]

How do you know it was 'dodgy' may I ask?

An enormously profitable company meeting with the country's top tax official and being let off around 85% of its liabilities. Doesn't that sound just a little bit fishy to you?

racially loaded expression

Oh Lord! I am Jewish Sawyer, do you wish to guess what my race is and whether I have been circumcised or not?

Rest assured I do not Roy! But it was not your good self who used the term in question, so you probably have no more idea than I, what is implied.

 

[DIY Stew]

So you guys what do you think about the Public Sector Strikes?

Stew :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Digit]

You stated that a comment on circumcision was 'racial', pesonally I know of no 'race' that practices the rite. But as ever I am willing to be corrected, that way, I learn.

So you guys what do you think about the Public Sector Strikes?

In this country, with few exceptions, employees have that right, I, as a DM reader :lol: support that as a democratic principle. But as I understand it less that 50 % of those same PS employees voted in favour of such action. That is not my understanding of democracy.
And yes, before I am asked, I have been on strike in the past.

Roy.

 

[Sawyer]

You stated that a comment on circumcision was 'racial', pesonally I know of no 'race' that practices the rite. But as ever I am willing to be corrected, that way, I learn.

Not exactly, Roy; but it has certain connotations does it not? Many times, I have heard it used either in jokes or perjorative comments about groups of people. I expect we are all familiar with the sort of thing I refer to.

 

[Digit]

Not exactly, Roy;

Your phrase was 'racially loaded expression', you took a phrase and decided it was racial when we all know or should know that circumcision as a rite is not practised exclusively by any race. In fact over 50 % of US males are currently circumcised, and to clarify further not all Jewish sects practise the rite.
The fact that others may make jokes etc is not something I wish to comment on.
As a Jew I found nothing to be offended about by Roger's comment.

Roy.

 

[RogerS]

..... proper discussion, ....

That's what I've been trying to get out of you. At the risk of repeating myself and boring everyone else and in the vain hope that you actually stay on track and don't try and evade the issue again...

Timeline...page 4.....you made this sweeping statement....The city wide boys owe the UK taxpayers billions. Enough to pay the deficit, in fact.

I asked you to justify that statement.

Your response was to quote from a Telegraph article. I read that article. There is nothing in that article that supports or refers to your sweeping statement.

I asked you to cut and paste and show us where it did - in case I missed something. You did not.

So I started to cut and paste myself to show you how to do it. But I got bored as I knew that there was nothing in that article to support your, yes, cant.

So I ask again. Where is your evidence to support the above statement? If you can't produce any evidence then retract it, admit that it was a sweeping generalisation based on your own left-wing viewpoint and has no justification then we can move on.

 

[Sawyer]

In this country, with few exceptions, employees have that right, I, as a DM reader :lol: support that as a democratic principle. But as I understand it less that 50 % of those same PS employees voted in favour of such action. That is not my understanding of democracy.
And yes, before I am asked, I have been on strike in the past.

Roy.

Erm, what percentage voted Cameron for PM - remind me please? He'd have been very happy indeed to have got anywhere near 50% of the vote. Despite this one being one of the Tories' favourite anti-strike arguments.

All affected union members were balloted. The PCS Union received a 'yes' vote of 61%. By my understaning of democracy, that's a clear majority.

 

[Digit]

Erm, what percentage voted Cameron for PM - remind me please?

Remind me as to the percentage who voted for Blair whilst we are at it. There has been but two, IIRC, majority government in the UK since WW2. The present coalition makes the third.
The last time the LDs, or Libs as they were then, were in power, was in coalition with the labour party. I didn't hear any of these arguments from the left at that time, why i wonder?

The PCS Union received a 'yes' vote of 61%.

and the teachers etc?

Roy.

 

[RogerS]

In this country, with few exceptions, employees have that right, I, as a DM reader :lol: support that as a democratic principle. But as I understand it less that 50 % of those same PS employees voted in favour of such action. That is not my understanding of democracy.
And yes, before I am asked, I have been on strike in the past.

Roy.

Erm, what percentage voted Cameron for PM - remind me please? He'd have been very happy indeed to have got anywhere near 50% of the vote. Despite this one being one of the Tories' favourite anti-strike arguments.

All affected union members were balloted. The PCS Union received a 'yes' vote of 61%. By my understaning of democracy, that's a clear majority.

Erm..remind me just what percentage of the PCS actually voted? 32%. So 61% of 32% can hardly be called a majority. By my calculation that figure means that out of the entire PCS union membership, 20% felt sufficiently strongly to vote for a strike action. You do have a way with, shall we say, selectively quoting.

 

[Sawyer]

Roger: so: Vodafone, Goldman Sachs, Sir Phillip Green's retail empire, RBS, et al. have nothing do do with the City. Is that what you're saying?
Or are you suggesting that this lot have paid their taxes in full? Maybe you know better than a Commons Select Committee, who seemed to think otherwise?

Your own cutting and pasting efforts from the Telegraph were curiously selective, I thought: you missed out 'Britain lost £35bn in uncollected taxes last year - the equivalent of 7.9pc of the annual revenue, the Treasury has admitted'. Purely an oversight on your part, I'm sure.

Digit: Still a clear majority of votes in PCS. How many voted 'no' again? Oh yes, and how many voted in the General Election?

 

[Digit]

Digit: Still a clear majority of votes in PCS. How many voted 'no' again? Oh yes, and how many voted in the General Election?

You are facing both ways here my friend, if you are talking percentage of votes cast rather than percentage of voters you must do so for both Unions and General Elections.
The Labour party has been talking of making voting in General elections compulsary, will they do so with the Unions?
The percentage of non voters in the last GE was probably little different for any of the parties, thus the non voters would have had little effect on the result even if they had voted.

'Britain lost £35bn in uncollected taxes last year - the equivalent of 7.9pc of the annual revenue,

True or not I know not, but you went on from there to blame your 'super rich,' as I pointed out, the report does not seem to apportion blame to any particular group. You seem to be reading more into the report than is stated.

Roy.

 

[doorframe]

Chaps, it's got to be time to end this one... at least the political 'to and fro'-ing.

Why not just agree to disagree. :wink:

Roy