Pocket hole screws?

[powertools]

I have never used or seen pocket hole screws until today when I had to remove some storage units from the back of my van that I did not fit.
They were well fitted using pocket hole work and I tried every screwdriver I had down the hole to unscrew them to no avail and in the end I used the flat screwdriver and hammer method to get to the top of the screws only to find that they had square drive heads.
I have often wondered what the square bits were for in my bit set but why do pocket hole screws use a square drive?

 

[Myfordman]

Square drive bits are very common is some countries such as Canada. I suspect pocket hole joinery could well have started there.
Is Kreg a Canadian company?

 

[AndyT]

I think I read somewhere that the Ford Model T had square head screws throughout.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Thought Kreg wsa a German firm?
Ive always assumed they use a square drive because of the extra torque it gives you when driving the pan head into the pocket hole. Always seemed a good idea to me.

 

[lanemaux]

As well as I can reason it out , the robertson (square head) drive would make positioning your screw in the hole very easy. With the proper size bit a good tight fit to the driver allows you to invert your driver, and hey presto , the screw stays put. As long as you don't shake it you can position with one hand on the driver in tight spots. As far as it being popular in Canuckia , well , we are a very clever people when it comes to avoiding stress. Finding a screw on the floor when it drops , or stripping a slot or for that matter stabbing your hand with a driver are just avoidable stress.

 

[No skills]

As far as it being popular in Canuckia , well , we are a very clever people when it comes to avoiding stress. Finding a screw on the floor when it drops , or stripping a slot or for that matter stabbing your hand with a driver are just avoidable stress.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

My bil in NZ told me several years ago that he used square drive almost exclusively.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I often wondered if those square drives should rightfully have become the standard...but posidrive seems to have conquered the world. I reckon its a VHS vs Betamax thing (or Mac vs PC). Everyone knows that the better quality technology lost the battle for standards because of superior marketing.

 

[AndyT]

I often wondered if those square drives should rightfully have become the standard...but posidrive seems to have conquered the world. I reckon its a VHS vs Betamax thing (or Mac vs PC). Everyone knows that the better quality technology lost the battle for standards because of superior marketing.

It seems to be down to licensing and working with Ford (or not!) - http://www.mysteriesofcanada.com/Ontario/robertson_screws.htm

 

[Eric The Viking]

The Wikipedia articles on screw driving methods are a good read.

In my humble opinion (and I'm NOT a pro!), they are by far the best design of all screw heads. The trouble is that the Robertson company have always been very protective of the design, keeping them from more widespread use, and that's why we're stuck (mainly) with Pozidriv and Phillips.

• The angles are carefully engineered so that normal wear on the driver doesn't cause camming-out*. This also means you can drive the screw with very little force applied to the axis of the screw - less wear on wrists, elbows and power screwdriver thrust bearings.
• There's a positive lock of screw with driver, meaning the driver can carry the screw to the hole at any angle, even sideways.
• The torque transfer from driver to screw is very good, meaning driving is more efficient.
• In production, the tooling is easier to make and maintain (compared to, say Phillips).

My second favourite is Torx, for most of the above reasons, but the drivers aren't as robust. I've had a couple of Torx bits shatter in my impact driver, although they're intended for the purpose. My least favourite is Allen/hex, as I find it hard to judge the correct size key when removing them, and the keys are easily damaged (hard to find a good set inexpensively).

E.

 

[marcros]

i agree with Eric the Viking on this. I am currently using the Paslode torx head screws as general purpose go to screws- they are (or certainly were) on offer at Toolstation, and seem to be very good. Robertson are available in the UK, but I have only seen them at a single stockist, and are a lot more expensive than the Paslode. I wouldnt mind if I only needed the odd box, but I bought several sizes at the same time to make a stock- the price differnece would have been very noticable. I may well use Robertson the next time I finish a box of the paslodes.

 

[Eric The Viking]

I am currently using the Paslode torx head screws as general purpose go to screws- they are (or certainly were) on offer at Toolstation, and seem to be very good.

Ditto, exactly.

I got through about 1000 of them before Christmas, 4.5x50 IIRC. I was boarding the loft. They noticeably improved the battery life of the impact driver over Pozi, but as I said, I shattered a bit (I think it was just one, actually).

For that sort of job they're invaluable, as you can't be farting about with worn out driver bits that occasionally slip. Diamond-encrusted ones are brilliant, but even they give out with a lot of work.

E.
(wot bling?)

 

[Benchwayze]

I have never used or seen pocket hole screws until today when I had to remove some storage units from the back of my van that I did not fit.
They were well fitted using pocket hole work and I tried every screwdriver I had down the hole to unscrew them to no avail and in the end I used the flat screwdriver and hammer method to get to the top of the screws only to find that they had square drive heads.
I have often wondered what the square bits were for in my bit set but why do pocket hole screws use a square drive?

Well Kreg probably use them because they don't jump the 'slot' so easily when used in a drill. So I am led to believe. But it also means you are locked in to buying Kreg screws, when any round head screw with a washer will suit. (Star-drive screws for instance. Just as effective as the Kreg screws. You merely need another bit!

(Incidentally, the Leigh Dovetail Jig adjusting screwdriver fits Kreg screws, if you ever need to pull a screw home by hand.)

HTH

 

[powertools]

Thanks for the detailed and interesting replies.
As I said at the start I have had nothing to do with pocket hole work until now when I am moving and altering some units and I have been surprised how strong the joints have been and may well invest in a basic kit to use on some future projects of my own.

 

[No skills]

@ Eric

1 bit for 1000 screws is a pretty good rate for impact usage.

I generally use wera or millwaukee impact rated bits, prefer the wera's - the mill's are slightly better wearing but less grippy.


I've been looking at PH jigs of late, anybody have a preference for which one??

 

[Eric The Viking]

@ Eric

1 bit for 1000 screws is a pretty good rate for impact usage.

It probably did 400-500. I was a bit more gentle with the second one and it survived to the end.

I generally use wera or millwaukee impact rated bits, prefer the wera's - the mill's are slightly better wearing but less grippy. I've been looking at PH jigs of late, anybody have a preference for which one??

Honestly, Kreg.

I didn't realise the complexity, and bought a Kreg basic kit. I think because Axminster had them on offer (they've stopped selling them now, which is a shame). Once you start looking into it seriously there are lots of fiddly aspects, for example the location of the hole changes depending on stock thickness, etc. If you just want to make an angled hole in a bit of wood, anybody's will do, but if it's a substitute for joinery, I'd go Kreg.

The UJK kit (Axminster) looks OK too (properly adjustable), but it's supplied with Torx screws rather than Robertson.

E.

 

[No skills]

Eric

I'll have a shop around for some Kreg prices. Ta.




Sorry for the thread side track..

 

[matthewwh]

I did a little blog post last year about why Robbies took off in Canada but didn't become a world standard. 12 months on we apparently now sell more Kreg products than anyone else.

Here you go:
http://workshopheaven.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/robertson-square-drive-screw.html

 

[AndyT]

Thanks Matthew - that's clearer than the brief story I linked to.