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New Veritas Tool Steel - PM-V11

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Cheshirechappie

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So is motherhood and apple pie. Some detail would be appreciated. For example, is it good at taking a very fine edge at, say, 25 degree honing angle and holding it for lots of fine paring? Is it good at holding an edge for a long time chopping abrasive timbers? Is it easy to sharpen on conventional stones, or does it need something fancy? Does it show any signs of the brittleness associated with some A2 tools?

Is it worth taking out a mortgage to replace all the tools already in the toolchest?
 

GazPal

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Cheshirechappie":sjq3c9ne said:
So is motherhood and apple pie.

Is it worth taking out a mortgage to replace all the tools already in the toolchest?
I agree on both points and everything else between :D
 

jimi43

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I note that sharpening O1 from a baseline to the same sharpness vs PM-V11 was almost twice as fast...as it was versus A2

Or did I read this wrong?

:lol:

I guess this would make sense if PM-V11 is that much harder......but you can compensate for this by using ceramic hones and other techniques.

Time to chuck away all my natural hones I guess.......wait....nah. I have never been dissatisfied with old steels...and I don't think that is likely to change any time soon.

Jim
 

dunbarhamlin

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What's almost more interesting is that the test results presented suggest yesterday's darling toolie steel, A2, is barely more performant than O1, whilst being considerably harder to sharpen.
 

Rob Lee

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dunbarhamlin":2qvzlzcb said:
What's almost more interesting is that the test results presented suggest yesterday's darling toolie steel, A2, is barely more performant than O1, whilst being considerably harder to sharpen.
Hi,

Not sure I'd go quite that far, as our testing does show different. There will certainly be an appropriate choice for many people among the steels on offer though. Keep in mind that our scales are relative, and not absolute. Our testing was designed to aid in making a selection... not to absolutely quantify differences.

"Harder to sharpen" really depends on the regimen you use....

Cheers -

Rob
 

Paul Chapman

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What a great time we woodworkers are living in with firms like Lee Valley/Veritas, Lie Nielsen, Clifton, Wenzloff and others continually developing better tools and materials :D

Keep up the good work, Rob.......

Cheers :wink:

Paul
 

Mr Ed

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Paul Chapman":3ftcxieo said:
What a great time we woodworkers are living in with firms like Lee Valley/Veritas, Lie Nielsen, Clifton, Wenzloff and others continually developing better tools and materials :D

Keep up the good work, Rob.......

Cheers :wink:

Paul
Yes, well to some extent, but let's not forget the better mousetrap fallacy

http://tomfishburne.com/2011/08/a-better-mousetrap.html

As it says, “People don’t want to buy a quarter-inch drill. They want a quarter-inch hole.”
 

Paul Chapman

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Mr Ed":2jvy5bri said:
Paul Chapman":2jvy5bri said:
What a great time we woodworkers are living in with firms like Lee Valley/Veritas, Lie Nielsen, Clifton, Wenzloff and others continually developing better tools and materials :D

Keep up the good work, Rob.......

Cheers :wink:

Paul
Yes, well to some extent, but let's not forget the better mousetrap fallacy

http://tomfishburne.com/2011/08/a-better-mousetrap.html

As it says, “People don’t want to buy a quarter-inch drill. They want a quarter-inch hole.”
Yes, but in the 1970s and 80s most hand tools simply disappeared from the market. If it hadn't been for firms like Lee Valley/Veritas, Lie Nielsen, Clifton, Wenzloff and others we wouldn't have any mouse traps at all........

Cheers :wink:

Paul
 

Doug B

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Paul Chapman":3lh4hu6y said:
Mr Ed":3lh4hu6y said:
Paul Chapman":3lh4hu6y said:
What a great time we woodworkers are living in with firms like Lee Valley/Veritas, Lie Nielsen, Clifton, Wenzloff and others continually developing better tools and materials :D

Keep up the good work, Rob.......

Cheers :wink:

Paul
Yes, well to some extent, but let's not forget the better mousetrap fallacy

http://tomfishburne.com/2011/08/a-better-mousetrap.html

As it says, “People don’t want to buy a quarter-inch drill. They want a quarter-inch hole.”
Yes, but in the 1970s and 80s most hand tools simply disappeared from the market. If it hadn't been for firms like Lee Valley/Veritas, Lie Nielsen, Clifton, Wenzloff and others we wouldn't have any mouse traps at all........

Cheers :wink:

Paul
Agreed Paul,

But I remember all the hype that came along with A2 & it certainly hasn`t lived up to it.
 

Paul Chapman

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Doug B":dvh9w33j said:
But I remember all the hype that came along with A2 & it certainly hasn`t lived up to it.
I think the problems with A2 were largely ones of marketing. It was marketed as the best thing since sliced bread when it wasn't. Had the manufacturers explained that it would hold an edge longer than 01 but needed to be honed at steeper angles, then a lot of the "problems" could have been avoided. They of course tell us that now and most offer a choice of A2 or 01. It's just a pity that they couldn't have been a bit more up-front in the first place.

I think Rob and his team have made a good start by publishing test results comparing the characteristics of the different materials tested.

Cheers :wink:

Paul
 

Mr Ed

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Doug B":2kqet24m said:
Agreed Paul,

But I remember all the hype that came along with A2 & it certainly hasn`t lived up to it.
As it happens I have quite a few A2 plane blades and chisels and haven't had any issues with them, but I mainly selected that steel because it was 'the thing' that was being offered for sale at the time; I wasn't trading up to that from some perceived inferior steel. I personally think the differences between the steels are not as significant as the tool companies present them as being. To be clear, I'm not doubting that each new steel has some better wear or sharpness characteristics, but just that these incremental improvements in steel technology are not as significant to changes in experience for the tool users.

The new steel may well be a better mousetrap, but that in itself doesn't mean anyone wants/needs it as a trade up from what they have now. The tool companies, however much they may have contributed to the growth and betterment of woodworking, are ultimately selling stuff so they are predisposed to continually come forward with the new new thing.

I'll probably buy some anyway :lol:

Ed
 

Doug B

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Paul Chapman":1bewpeab said:
I think the problems with A2 were largely ones of marketing. It was marketed as the best thing since sliced bread when it wasn't. Had the manufacturers explained that it would hold an edge longer than 01 but needed to be honed at steeper angles, then a lot of the "problems" could have been avoided. They of course tell us that now and most offer a choice of A2 or 01. It's just a pity that they couldn't have been a bit more up-front in the first place.
Once again I agree Paul, but the same marketing message was paraded by the woodworking press who also bought into A2. They were supposed to have tested it thoroughly & came out with the same message that the marketing men were saying.

No doubt the same press will be equally enthusiastic to hype up their advertisers latest "best thing since sliced bread".

Though at 30% more for the PM-V11 than standard O1 blades, it will be interesting if this latest "must have" is 30% better than what we already have. For me I think I`ll wait & see, as the saying goes, time will tell.

Cheers.
 

Rob Lee

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Doug B":2maz5w1n said:
(Snip) it will be interesting if this latest "must have" is 30% better than what we already have. For me I think I`ll wait & see, as the saying goes, time will tell.

Cheers.
Hi -

Much as I'd like to be in the same marketing position as Apple is (customers virtually begging for continual upgrades) - there's absolutely no reason to change anything that works for you in the hand tool world. In fact, I'd submit it's much the opposite - antiques seem to become more attractive as skills develop.

We improve products to sell to people that don't have anything (and so that we'll be here for a few more decades).

It would kinda be a shame to ignore the benefits new processes and materials bring....

Cheers -

Rob
 
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