New metal lathe cutting tools; solid or replaceable tips..?

[tangledfeet]

I'm a technical teacher at a Scottish secondary school and I'll be teaching National 4/5 (Scottish equivalent of 'O' Grades) Practical Metalwork next school session, pretty much a new subject to the curriculum.

We have two new (well - new to us, anyway...) Warco GH1330 centre lathes but virtually no cutting tools so I need to get the requisitions in for new cutting tools. I did my time on the tools 20+yrs ago, and grinding/sharpening lathe tools was never a strength of mine!

Are the cutting tools with replaceable carbide tips pretty much the de facto standard these days, and are they robust enough for clumsy use by secondary school kids?

Many thanks for any guidance!


PS - Had a clear out today of the old kit for the old lathes and found a couple of Myford 3-jaw chucks; do they have any value or worth..?!

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Insert tip tools are pretty much industry standard these days. Indeed, you may be hard pressed to find brazed carbide-tipped tools. However, the insert tips do have their disadvantages; they're expensive, they tend to be brittle, and they really don't like slower cutting speeds. All of those weaknesses may be quite significant in a school workshop.

I hate to say this, but HSS may be the pragmatic option, especially for inexperienced operators. It's almost certainly the cheaper option, too.

Myford chucks (especially if they have both inside and outside jaw sets and the chuck key) have a definite value - check past Ebay prices!

 

[tangledfeet]

Insert tip tools are pretty much industry standard these days. Indeed, you may be hard pressed to find brazed carbide-tipped tools. However, the insert tips do have their disadvantages; they're expensive, they tend to be brittle, and they really don't like slower cutting speeds. All of those weaknesses may be quite significant in a school workshop.

I hate to say this, but HSS may be the pragmatic option, especially for inexperienced operators. It's almost certainly the cheaper option, too.

Myford chucks (especially if they have both inside and outside jaw sets and the chuck key) have a definite value - check past Ebay prices!

Thanks!

I was thinking that HSS would be the pragmatic option as I did wonder just how brittle replaceable tips are.

I'll take some pics of the chucks tomorrow, perhaps even bring them home, and post up some photos in the appropriate forum.

 

[woodpig]

A mate works in the DT dept at a school and says they went over to insert tooling a few years back because the staff had difficulty sharpening HSS tools. Inserts can work out expensive but will give you repeatable results and save time over sharpening HSS. I use both insert and HSS tooling on my Lathe at home but do over 90% of my turning with a home made Tangential tool holder. One of these may be a viable option for you as they are very easy to sharpen with a suitable Jig. The commercial version is available here, there is a UK distributor:

http://www.eccentricengineering.com.au/ ... &Itemid=17

They call it a diamond tool holder due to the shape of the cutting edge. I don't know anyone who has bought (or made) one of these tools that has been dissapointed with it. You'll still need other tools like boring bars etc but it would make a good start.

 

[chipmunk]

Pre-formed HSS tooling is also worth considering for steel or Ali.
http://chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/Individual_HSS_Lathe_Turning_Tools.html

I use them all the time as it's much less time consuming than grinding from scratch, kinder on the grinder and only marginally expensive. They just need touching up every so often on the grinder or with a hone.

For brass and bronze the chip-breaker can be a bit aggressive.
HTH
Jon

 

[woodpig]

I forgot to say, if you decide on buying insert tooling be sure to get industrial inserts and holders made by someone like Sandvik. An industrial double sided triangular insert provides 6 cutting tips whilst a Rhomboid style insert aimed at hobbyists only has two but costs the same. My small Lathe doesn't have the power to use industrial inserts but your Warco Lathes should have no problem. A good supplier can advise you on suitable tooling. Buck & Hickman or Cromwell will be happy to help.

 

[AES]

Agree 100% with what "he" (Woodpig) says.

I've given up with industrial tipped tools (my mini lathe doesn't have the grunt to do much with anything except the "hobbyists" Rhomboid tools, and they're relatively expensive) whereas the Diamond Tool Holder (Eccentric Engineering, as he says) is, IMHO, the answer to the maiden's prayer. Not very cheap (but works out much cheaper than tipped tools), available in a range of sizes, includes a very, YES, very simple tool grinding jig (plus a length of HSS tool steel) and even more important from your viewpoint I guess, very easy to set up and produces excellent resultsin lesser-skilled hands (please DAMHIKT)!

Has a UK distributor too.

Thoroughly recommended - usual disclaimers

HTH
AES

 

[woodpig]

Also worth mentioning is that I sharpen nearly all my tools on a setup not too dissimilar from the Sorby Pro Edge that so many on here seem to like. Mine is a much modified Record BDS250 belt and disc sander but it works in the same way. This is my setup.

The silver one is my shop made jig and the black one comes with the tool from Eccentric Engineering. I prefer mine but both achieve the same result. Another handy thing to have for your Lathe is a height setting gauge. Here is mine in use setting my shop made Tangential tool.

 

[AES]

I do like your tool height and grinding jigs Woodpig, thanks for the pix.

Krgds
AES

 

[Inspector]

There is a US company, Arthur R Warner Co., that makes HSS insert tooling that could be a possibility for you.

http://www.arwarnerco.com

I would have thought Sandvik would have tools and learning materials for schools because students that start with a brand like that tend to carry the brand preference to their jobs if they go into the trade. I know they support the trade schools here and possibly the high schools too. What few are left that have shop programs.

Pete

 

[tangledfeet]

Thanks all for your advice, comments and ongoing discussion!

I have a feeling that I may well find myself right at home on this forum... 8)

I do think that HSS is probably going to be the way to go as, simply, decent carbide tip tooling will probably be financially beyond any justification I could make. That, and as a council school we can only buy from a limited range of suppliers but I will investigate the suggestions given.

Anyway, I took some photos of the old Burnerd chucks I found at school and I suspect that they may well be worth something - would eBay be the way to go or would anyone here be interested? Also found two sets of internal jaws that I would think are for the above; unused - realised that it was ancient packing grease I was cleaning off with WD40 when I got home this evening!

 

[porker]

+1 for the tangential tool holder. Made one myself last year before I moved house and only had a quick play and am yet to get my lathe recommissioned. Grinding is easy and it cuts great with a good finish. I do also use some insert tooling for my boring bar etc and for hard metal but HSS is a lot cheaper. You could also try HSS with a high cobalt content as its supposed to wear well.
Chucks are a good make if not worn. I assume they have a backplate fitted for the Myford nose fitting? I already have two of these and a four jaw so not in the market for one but they fetch good money if clean at the usual well know auction site.

 

[woodpig]

Cromwell have a special offer on 8% Cobalt HSS tool blanks at the moment.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Cromwell have a special offer on 8% Cobalt HSS tool blanks at the moment.

That stuff is an absolute pig to grind. Mind you, once you do get it ground up, tool edges last a very long time. Just the job for machining stainless or high-tensile steels.

(I think 8% cobalt is M42 grade HSS)

If you search around a bit, HSS lathe tools can still be obtained already shaped up. You may have to tweek for adequate clearance angles and cutting rake for some materials, but the bulk of the work is done. I'm fairly sure the big suppliers like Cromwell carry them. I think they're usually in M2 grade HSS, which isn't quite as indestructable as M42, but is more than good enough for machining mild steel, brass and the like.

'Ere we go - https://www.cromwell.co.uk/shop/393602/butt-weld-tools

 

[woodfarmer]

I have just recently ordered some HSS 8% from Warco. easy to deal with. I like using HSS in holders. My Holbrook although big by hobby standards has a top speed of 400 rpm. so generally speaking heat is seldom a problem. Nor is rate of work, because It is used for "hobby" stuff. So replaceable carbide tips would probably be counter productive for me. A big plus for HSS is I can easily grind special shapes for different jobs/materials. It is also very easy to make your own tool bit holders.

 

[woodpig]

Grades of HSS here.

http://www.icscuttingtools.com/Tooldata.htm

Then there's Crobalt but it's not cheap!

http://www.crobaltusa.com

 

[chipmunk]

Anyway, I took some photos of the old Burnerd chucks I found at school and I suspect that they may well be worth something - would eBay be the way to go or would anyone here be interested? Also found two sets of internal jaws that I would think are for the above; unused - realised that it was ancient packing grease I was cleaning off with WD40 when I got home this evening!

Well you could try them here...
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/for-sale-wanted.html
or probably better here...
http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/classifieds/

...but you'd have to subscribe first.
HTH
Jon

 

[chuckey]

While the "Eccentric" tool has had many good reports, it is expensive and I feel that one should have at least two if not three sets of lathe tools, one for brass, one for mild steel and one for aluminimun , which would do for most plastics. The same comments go for replaceable tipped tools, Err, I think that's 10/10 for HSS.
Frank

 

[woodpig]

Tangential tools are easy to make if you have a mill. This one only cost me an hour or two on the mill and some steel from the scrap bin.

 

[porker]

And a blasted finish? That looks an amazing tool. Was this CNC or a manual machine?