New Machine (garage) Room Setup advice require please

[krisdl]

Hello there

I am presently studying furniture making and I am able to pay my hands a little bit of cash to setup a machine room in my garage, ( I have a 12x10 workshop recently erected next to the garage) I do not presently have any machines and I am looking to take timber from it's rough state and machine it myself to the point that I can start to make the cabinets or chairs or whatever my next project maybe. This is me only using the machines and I would doubt most people would call it heavy work but I cannot afford to spend this money again (baby on the way) so this is my one chance to get a decent setup.

I have £2800 to spend but this includes getting the electrics done to both the shed and the garage, there is absolutely no wiggle room. I have turned to Charnwood as they seem to offer a great range of machines and they come at an affordable price.

The following is my purchase list so far.

W730 14'' Woodworking Bandsaw £489
W650 Tablesaw £829
W583 10'' x 7'' Planer Thicknesser £799
W691 2HP Single Bag Dust Extractor £269
W520 Universal Wheel Base x3 £150

Total £2536

As you can see I am at the very top of my budget but I think there might be a bit of wiggle room (discount) if I get all this machinery from charnwood, my question is it worth it? I have seen a nice review of the bandsaw, not seen anything about the table saw I think and the planer thicknesser looks like the one from axminster but I just don't know enough to know for sure. Any advice would be fantastic, my wife has warned me against coming to her with stories of "spend more to get more" what we have is what we have she said, and her word is final!

Thank you for any time you spend looking at my list, I would appreciate feedback.

Kris

 

[marcros]

i would look at the secondhand route personally.

 

[Newbie_Neil]

Hi Kris,

I don't know much about Charnwood, but I don't think they have the best of names.

To save money, and space, why not do without the table saw and just have a bandsaw? I'd have a look for a secondhand Startrite 352.

Oh, and I would also recommend that you buy the Steve Maskery bandsaw dvd and a new blade/s from TuffSaw.

Thanks,
Neil

 

[Lee J]

from your list I'd do without the table saw, dust extractor and the wheelbases.

Build your own wheel bases and possibly make your own dust bag too or buy a good respirator and a decent shop vac.

£1248 saved straight off.

 

[Ed H]

Kris

I was in a similar situation to you about this time last year so thought I would pass on my experiences.

Like you, I had an empty garage (2.4m x 4.9m) and wanted to buy the correct tools to take rough sawn timber and turn it into furniture.

Originally I started buying brand new tools but pretty quickly I realised that you could get much more value for money on the big machines by buying them second hand. Initially I was unsure of going down this road but thankfully it’s been a really good decision. Woodworkers on the whole take care of their tools so when they do decide to sell the tools they tend to be in a good condition (though there are obviously exceptions to this rule).

Using this approach I’ve now set myself up with all the tools I need (table saw, bandsaw, planer, thicknesser, extractor, morticer) at probably less than half the price they would be new and all have worked as well as I could have hoped (had to change the odd switch/blade but nothing major). All are what you would call “trade” rated as well so they are big, heavy, have cast iron tables etc etc unlike some of the cheaper aluminium built machines available.

I’ve bought most of my tools through the “for sale” page on this forum so that’s where I would advise you to look. It may take a while but you’ll find some great bargains.

I also have a couple of bits of advice based on my experience:

1) Contrary to the other posts I would say a Table Saw is a must. I have the Axminster AW10BSB2 with table extensions and its easily the most used/most useful tool in the shop - I love it. I'd be wary of the Charnwood Table Saw you linked as it doesnt look like the fence locks in at the far end meaning it could move out when pressure is put against it while cutting large sheet goods etc which will lead to an inaccurate cut.

2) If you do get a Table Saw get a good quality mitre gauge as the ones you get as standard on all machines from Axminster/SIP/Charnwood are all rubbish. Osborne MB3 or Incra 1000 are the best – I have the Osborne.

3) Leave yourself some money for clamps, you'll need a good selection.

4) Finally, for your wheeled base have a look here http://www.rutlands.co.uk/workshop-&-po ... obile-base

Good luck and be sure to post your future projects up on the Forum.
Cheers
Ed

 

[krisdl]

Ok wow thats a lot of info and it came in fast!

I should have said that the Steve Maskery DVD set was on my purchase list from the start.

I really was looking at the 2nd hand market but I am in the south-west (cornwall) and I am so far down that is is nigh on impossible for me to get time off to drive up and get machinery where it all seems to be selling collection only, I also don't have a vehicle to move it in. The other thing about used machinery that scared me was in my experience they always come with issues and nobody selling is willing to tell you about them and I'm not knowledgeable at the moment to deal with those issues.

I find it hard to source good quality hardwood in cornwall, and the used machine market down here is non existent so in my eyes it seemed like going down the new route would be better because at least I would have a company to call if something was terribly wrong.

I am finding it hard to stray away from new for the reasons mentioned above, am I wrong or just not looking because i look on the for sale forum nearly everyday for months and nobody is willing to courier the big machines it seems and I completely understand that.

I will look into some used machines and see if it is viable but I really appreciate your time and effort folks it has me thinking and I'll have to do a bit more of that before I'm ready to drop some cash although the baby is due in June and I should be set up by then.

Kris

 

[riclepp]

Hi Kris

I agree what others have already mentioned. I have bouhgt a fair amount of second hand tools on the forum and I have never had a problem. In comms with the sellers, thay have so far been gracious to hang onto stuff untill I was able to get there and get it, or I arranged it to be colleted and delivred for a few extra quid. So it is still worth looking and asking, most on here are pretty approachable and willing to help, if you ask.

The only new buy I have is the axi plannerthicknesser.

Good luck, oh and do post your furniture when you make it ?

 

[Jelly]

Assuming you're planning to do most of the joinery by hand (implied but i'm not sure):

For milling solid wood, a tablesaw is not very useful at all; I'd personally suggest as big a bandsaw as you can justify (the greater the throat depth and the ability to tesion wide blades the better) as the best tool for resawing, and either a smallish Radial Arm Saw* or the biggest capacity SCMS you can afford for cut-to-length, built into a flat bench with a full length fence and you're laughing. Depending on the lengths you're reciving, two or three roller stands would also be useful.


On the other hand, for accurately dimensioning panel products a tablesaw with extention tables is quick and easy; if you were using them all the time, it would be a near indispensible tool.

Are you going to cut enough plywood and MDF to justify spending £900? Would a tracksaw and sawhorses, be better value for money? the 600-700 quid saved could be spent on a Spindle Moulder or used to increase your purchasing power for the other machines.


*Whilst much maligned and somewhat misunderstood, theres a reason that they're still fairly ubiquitous in industry, being able to gang-cut timbers (especially compound angles) is very useful... The ripping facility is also a handy, but deserves respect; failure to setup correctly can make it behave dangerously (specifically, the blade and fence must be parallel and the anti-kick pawls must be engaged fully).

 

[chris lewis joinery]

Hi kris
I have a Charnwood spindle moulder and it is the worst thing I have ever bought,it is so awkward to set up and use that it has been put in the corner to gather dust.I agree with the other posts old cast iron machine are the way to go,I have bought all my machines off eBay and have a full commercial workshop for around 5 grand ,it pays to shop around
Cheers chris

 

[krisdl]

God now I have no idea what to do, looking on ebay scares the hell out of me, not only are they nearly all pickup only but they are very very old looking and there is no promise I am not getting fleeced. If I buy something on ebay and they allow me to setup a pallet, how does that work and from what I can see thats another £100 per item. There is also the other point that my funds are limite, and when I say that I mean it my wife will nto budge if she says I'm getting £2800 that is exactly to the penny what I am getting.

 

[LJM]

I'd join the gang urging you to go second hand, but I'll add that pallet delivery is pretty cheap, about £40 for a 500kg pallet! So if you can find sellers who are able to put a machine onto a pallet (I've seen a lot of stuff for sale on pallets), then you can get them collected from them and delivered to you very economically.

I'd suggest looking at ebay and watching a few items. You'll get a feel for what names attract attention, and figure out what you can expect to pay for a given machine. Then find a few machines you like the look of and do some homework on them, so you understand what you're getting.

And if you feel confident or can enlist some help, read up on how to use or convert 3 phase machines on a single phase supply; good prices can be had on 3 phase stuff so you need not discount it from the off.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Kris, don't forget that sometimes living down the pointy end has it's advantages - anyone living Somerset upwards has to factor in more for transport, which keeps the bidding on anything you see in Cornwall/W.Devon down. I bought a lathe from someone in Torpoint, who obviously drove a diesel - he offered delivery for £20 - and it took two people to move it. Likewise, watch for local small ads. and auctions - people don't travel 100s of miles for them.

 

[marcros]

Assuming you're planning to do most of the joinery by hand (implied but i'm not sure):

For milling solid wood, a tablesaw is not very useful at all; I'd personally suggest as big a bandsaw as you can justify (the greater the throat depth and the ability to tesion wide blades the better) as the best tool for resawing, and either a smallish Radial Arm Saw* or the biggest capacity SCMS you can afford for cut-to-length, built into a flat bench with a full length fence and you're laughing. Depending on the lengths you're reciving, two or three roller stands would also be useful.


On the other hand, for accurately dimensioning panel products a tablesaw with extention tables is quick and easy; if you were using them all the time, it would be a near indispensible tool.

Are you going to cut enough plywood and MDF to justify spending £900? Would a tracksaw and sawhorses, be better value for money? the 600-700 quid saved could be spent on a Spindle Moulder or used to increase your purchasing power for the other machines.


*Whilst much maligned and somewhat misunderstood, theres a reason that they're still fairly ubiquitous in industry, being able to gang-cut timbers (especially compound angles) is very useful... The ripping facility is also a handy, but deserves respect; failure to setup correctly can make it behave dangerously (specifically, the blade and fence must be parallel and the anti-kick pawls must be engaged fully).

I am a hobbiest, so my perspective may be slightly different.

I started a couple of years ago, unsure of what i wanted to make (but with the vague idea of furniture for the house, and beehives). so i equipped my workshop the best that i thought i could given my budget. i thought carefully, and got a separate bench top thicknesser, a floor standing 6" planer, a table saw and various clamps. all spread over a few months. fast forward a couple of years, and I found the table saw to get in the way so I sold it. I bought a radial arm saw cheap, and am in the process of getting that set up. I have replaced the table saw with a big band saw, and I find that to be a most useful tool.

There is a lot to be said in what Jelly has put- in fact I fully agree with it. If I was to start again, knowing what I now do, I would have the band saw, the radial arm saw and i would add a track saw to it (next on my list). The 6" planer is a bit small- 10" would be better (i am going to build a router sled shortly for flattening a table top, and boards wider than the planer). I would keep the same thicknesser. That would cover almost all of my cutting requirements. At the moment, I am struggling to rip cut timber, and process the few sheets of material that I do. The tracksaw would do this. The radial saw will do all of my cross cutting- anything above 300mm can be done with the track saw, or by flipping it over on the radial arm saw. Dont forget that manoeuvring large sections of timber or sheet material isnt easy, so the track saw has the advantages of 1. being able to do it outside, and 2. the saw moves rather than the timber.

i dont know what you would have to budget for the saws. Radial arm saws seem to go for a couple of hundred used, maybe a bit more. A startrite bandsaw, 750 probably- others would be a bit less, and a track saw is between £220 (Scheppach new with 2 rails) to about £400 new for the Festool with a couple of rails.

 

[Tierney]

Hi,

My tuppence worth (I am a hobbyist):

A) 12 * 10 isn't huge, so I would consider trying to make do with fewer machines. Once you have your workbench and a few bits of wood, it can become a pain moving things around every time you need to do a different task.
B) Given the size of your 'shop, you may not be easily able to use your tablesaw to its full potential when dealing with sheet goods. I've got an 18 * 8 shop and have ended up struggling trying to use my table saw for sheet goods and probably done things that weren't safe as a result
C) Sliding cross cut saws need quite a bit of space behind them
D) a flip over saw or track saw (or the old fashioned circular saw with a straight edge set up) is something to consider
E)Old machines are great for build quality, many can be adjusted, but you may need to make a few jigs to get them to work (e.g. My bandsaw doesn't have a fence or a mitre slot, and takes a minute to get going- but it's table is deadflat and will deal with massive timber no problem). New machines (unless you are paying a lot of money) are more likely to be jack of all trades but master of none.

Everything everyone else has said is valid. Try and think carefully about what sort of work you will be doing and then decide what are the minimum number of machines needed, then decide which of those you are going to use the most and spend the most on that - a new Startrite Bandsaw might set you back £1,000; but, it will last you a lifetime.

You could choose not to spend all your money at once, buy a few things, see how you get on with them, which may mean that you spend it more wisely

Finally don't skimp on safety, buy a decent extractor and make sure you can connect all your machines to it and use a mask also.

Good luck!

DT

 

[Roughcut]

Kris you have said you are studying furniture making at present.
Are there not any contacts (lecturers etc.) who could point you in the direction for buying good used machinery?
Also I think you need to prioritise what you need and not what you think you need.
If I were in your shoes I would get the electrics sorted, then consider insulating your workshop if not already done.
Then I would seriously consider what I really needed to get started and buy 2 or 3 machines and start making stuff.
I have heard many people say only buy something when you know you need it, not because you think you might need it.
Wise words.

 

[krisdl]

I haven't made any decisions yet I just wanted to post and say thank you to all of you for making such detailed posts and to give me other perspectives to view this from. I also probably didn't make it clear, I have a 10x12 workshop that has a router table, drill press and small mortiser in it along with my hand tools and my bench, I will also have a flat area to work with for glueing and clamping. My garage will be where the machines are going, and that is all that will be in there, 3 machines plus dust extraction.

I hadn't even heard of a track saw until just now, and not having use a band saw much except to resaw I believed I needed something with enough clearance to rip some hardwood. The table saw would be used quite a lot or dimensioning and there is perhaps the use of a jig for tenons although I don't have steve mastery's dvd set yet and I guess that would give me an idea of bandsaw or tablesaw for that. The planer thicknesser is an absolute must.

The 3 machines seem to me like they are all needed at the moment, they are what I used to take rough timber to a workable state at college, and I don't know another way of doing it. My college lecturers are pretty thinly spread, there is two of them and they cover all the furniture making students Monday through Wednesday and then on thursday/Friday they cover the Pendennis influx, I have asked about machinery and hammer was suggested but they are very expensive so that was thrown right out the window.

The problem is that if I want to learn about machinery at college they want to charge me for another course, they only go in a very small amount of detail (ie: just enough to get the wood we need dimensioned) I have respect for the machines and I try to practice safety and health care at all times, my wife has already shown concern and asked me to do everything in the safest manner possible.

Although I am a student I am 41 so my days of rushing into things blind are gone, and I take time to know where I am going with all my decisions so that I do not make a mistake or have to repeat something just because I rushed it.

I have yet to see anyone in cornwall selling any used machinery, I look every single day on multiple websites and papers, sometimes I get machinery blindness, when this happens I miss bargains like the Basato 5-2 that went for £480 on ebay last weekend, he had it on a pallet aswell but this nearly never happens though and I have been looking for machinery for a good 8 months.

I really need to be up and going by June (baby due) and this is 75% of the reason I was choosing new machinery, but I see everyones point about bang for my buck and I am really torn now but I still appreciate everyones points of view and it really has made me think twice and consider other avenues.

Back to the drawing board.

By the way I've seen a few prices mentioned and I just don't seem to be able to locate the items for the prices mentioned, ie: Startrite 352 for £750, I have scoured the internet and it's more like £1000. Is there a magical land of used machinery website I have missed somewhere? Or are we talking about one of bargains?

Kris

P.S. this 3 phase to 1 phase conversion, is this something an ameteur could do? and if so what does it cost and is there a guide for simpletons available? Would this run on normal electric supply, or I've read some machinery needs 16amp all of this is completely new to me.

 

[LJM]

If you google the 3-phade issue you'll quickly find a breakdown of the options, much more clearly explained than I could do. As to weather it's something an amateur could do, certainly it is! I know people who've done it. But you need to be comfortable with what's involved. But, one option with a smaller 3-phase machine is to change the motor for a 240v one, though of course take advice on getting an appropriate motor.

I know the frustration of missing out on good tools... But you can find used tool dealers online. Equally, stuff turns up in auctions, scrap yards and so on...

As to your choice of tool, well only you know what you genuinely need. But it sounds like it would be beneficial to you to read books, watch DVDs, talk to other wood workers, whatever it takes to understand the full potential of each machine; I had a conversation with someone about machine choices only today and we agreed that one well chosen saw can take you an awfully long way; a typical college workshop has a good choice of big machines, so why not make use of them?! But when space and cash are at a premium, you may be able to find other ways of doing things...

Such as a track saw and some means of holding sheets to be cut. You can search this site for guide rails and find a thread on making your own very cheaply (£30 max, for 5' and 9' rail) and decent second hand circular saws can be had cheaply (£25 for a Makita 5903 for instance). With this it would be easy to work outside too if you wanted.

Finally, as others have said, get some extraction! Nose cancer doesn't sound nice to me... Again, search here to find simple and cheap plans to make a workshop air filter and a cyclone (from a dustbin and a monkey bucket) to save your wife's vacuum (sorry, awfully sexist) when used as an extractor.

 

[LJM]

A few links that may be useful:

http://www.rondeanmachinery.co.uk/Used- ... -for-sale/

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Startrite-301 ... 2ec78062d5

 

[krisdl]

A few links that may be useful:

http://www.rondeanmachinery.co.uk/Used- ... -for-sale/

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Startrite-301 ... 2ec78062d5

Already emailed that guy on ebay last night LJM last night to see if he would be able to pallet it, I don't really know how that all works. Any suggestions on which company to use would be great.

Unfortunately they don't like you using the college machinery for much more than your doing at college and I want to do a lot more than that, I already has some oak sitting here waiting, both some air dried and some kiln dried.

I have the whole garage and while it's just a normal size I think if the machines or at least 1 or 2 of them were on wheels that it would work pretty well. I have never reallyt messed with electrics so the thought of switching motors over seems well beyond me but I will look up the 3 phase issue.

I have talked with some other woodworkers, but they are all really on a hobby level and I want to take it further than that, the only other people I know are from a joiners and they just use machines all day long, great big honking green monsters.

I am also on a bit of a deadline so end of june sorta time. thank you for all your replies going to search the internet now

Kris

 

[onlinename]

I would avoid going Charnwood. I have been researching quite a bit over the past few months on table saws as well as other things you mentioned and I read quite a lot of mixed reviews about Charnwood machinery. Specifically there was a guy on here that returned a 650. If you search for the post you will find it.

I would look into Axminster table saws. They might be a bit more expensive but from my understanding they are very good build quality and their customer service is top.
Personally I went with a DeWalt DW745 for 389GBP because my shop is quite small and needed the mobility and space it provides.

I think you should look into the machinery prices a bit more because you have a good budget to start with and as the guys mentioned you can get great second hand machinery for the same money.

FIY I also read somewhere that the dust extractor you have chosen sometimes doesn't pick chips up very efficiently.