levelling table legs and so on

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engineer one

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it seems that the perceived wisdom is when you make say a table with
m/t legs at each end, and also stools with cross rails,

that post assembly you cut the legs to length to stablise them.

so the dumb question is how do you guarantee that the rails are
horizontal if you subsequently cut the legs??? :?

paul :wink:
 
dom, as usual pithy and to the point, 8)

have to say i agree, can't see how you can expect things to look right if you start from the premise that you are going to modify it post making :?

paul :wink:
 
I've always thought the way to stabalise the legs was to glue up on a flat surface.Then, if all the legs are the same length, surely the rails are guaranteed to be horizontal :?:
 
engineer one":2jox6tju said:
can't see how you can expect things to look right if you start from the premise that you are going to modify it post making :?

ecksackerly, now wait to be shot down Paul :)

Dom
 
Or you could make the stool with only three legs, then it wouldn't matter if they were a bit out :wink: :lol:

Cheers :wink:

Paul
 
I suspect whether someone trims the legs to an exact size or not, the 4-legged beast may not sit perfect flat anyway.

Some of mine have (or certainly close enough to sand the difference), others have not.

Good practice says to have them begin life to length--especially as most are tapered on one or two sides or round with fluting or what not. So to size is good practice else the elements may not look proper.

Good luck if you think legs to length will always result in a level table.

Take care, Mike
 
boy this will be fun :lol: :lol: :roll:

paul, i have occasionally sat on a milking stool, doing what you are supposed too, and don't let anyone tell you they stay level :twisted:
of course that might be that one is too fat, and tilts the stool the wrong way :lol:
mike you are right about 4 legs the same length being the requisite for a flat and level table. it does not take account of the floor either :roll:

slim jim, your answer kind of provides the reason for asking the question.
in woodworking i would say it is almost impossible to ensure that your assembly will be flat just because you assemble on a flat table.

lets look at what i am thinking.

i have got the wood cut, so now is the time to finally confirm the joints,
four legs, and a table top, but in the middle of the legs, a kind of tansu.
also a shelf below the top, so the legs will not be fixed except by using an m/t joint, into the top, but more of that later.

so i am thinking about 4 mortices in each leg. so that is 16 places where you can get an error build up.

i am foolishly planning to try hand work for these joints, but then you do have a major possible error source. in principal, if you use closed mortices, then to ensure that they are all the same, you need to make them slightly over depth. then i am not 100 % sure that you cut them all in exactly the same place and way by hand, since however well you mark them out, you will hold the chisel differently slightly every time. so one will be just on the line, one just under etc.

tenons, you have the same problem with ensuring that all the shoulders are in line both vertically and horizontally. i have great respect for those who can hand saw to the line and not need a shoulder plane to fettle.

so i can see the reason for cutting at least the shoulders on a table saw with a jig, and there is also a reason for cutting the tongues on the saw, even a bandsaw. :roll: again i guess you tend to think about cutting the
tenons slightly short to ensure that even if you have mitred them, they do not touch even when they expand.

now according to what a lot of so called experts say, the eye can see a bookshelf that has bent even if it is only about 1/4 inch over a 24 inch unit. but i wonder whether for this table, which may only be 24 inches high, the eye level will make any difference, because you will tend to look down on it, therefore will you see what i am worried about except when you assemble it. :? :roll:

but surely when you layout and mark and then cut, you are aiming to try and provide a unit which is flat and square within perceptible limits.

i shall of course make and fit each end first, so should i cut the cross ways mortices before or after to try and minimise the potential error. :roll:

having cut the wood i must now finish the table, so maybe i am thinking too hard about the problem. :?

paul :wink:
 
When you are marking out lay the legs (after cutting them to the same length :) ) side by side and clamp them square, then mark the first mortices, turn,the legs, clamp and so on.
If you must :) use hand tools just stay within the bloody lines and you can't go wrong.

Dom[/b]
 
i can understand the logic of staying within the lines. (was able to do that a loooooooooong time ago :twisted: )

so really what you seem to be saying is that one makes the adjustments to the tenon?
:?
paul :wink:
 
Well Dom you stated what I was thinking there. I always cut them to length using a guage on the saw and then as you stated clamp them all together and mark off the mortices, easy! :?
 
I have yet to put a table on to a surface that is as flat as my construction bench top.

Cheers

Tim
 
As an ex woodwork teacher of the 'old school', children could never be expected to glue up a coffee table fr'instance and have all the legs level, but here's how it's done after glue up:
Place the assembly on a level surface (eg, machine bed) and place packers under each leg until an equal distance can be measured from the top of each rail to the level surface. Then bang a nail into a piece of wood, sharpen the nail to a chisel edge and scribe a line round the bottom of each leg such that the distance from the scribed line to the top of the rail is the height needed. Material below the scribed line is then carefully removed and the result ought to be a dead level frame......easy when you know how :wink: :D - Rob
 
Rob =D> Nice to find someone else living in the real world :roll: :wink:

Scrit

PS It's been one of those days, today......
 
just when you thought it was safe to come aboard scrit you have one of those days :roll:

rob's solution is great for the basic problem, but not to answer the basic question "how do you ensure that the cross struts stay horizontal and level?"

paul
being awkward again,but hoping to learn :wink:
 
If the tops of all the mortises for the "cross struts" are the same distance down from the top of each leg and the distance from the top of the struts to the top of their respective tenons (the amount of edge shoulder) are the same all 'round, then they will appear level.

Mostly I have seen people get into trouble when they are not laid out like described above by Dom, blow the line in one or more mortises (by hand or machine), and or the amount of shoulder on the top of the strut varies.

Take care, Mike
 
Agreed, what Rob has said is perfectly correct, but failing the availability of a dead flat machine bed or workbench, which if you're making say a 5' coffee table, surely as serious hobbyists it would be better to mark out and cut accurately..

Dom
 
After glue-up, place on a flat surface and put little packers (wood, paper, cardboard) under any slightly high legs until you get the top of the table/stool level.

Then, simply meacure the mximum packer size and cut that amount off the other 3 legs and it will be sorted
 
'it seems that the perceived wisdom is when you make say a table with
m/t legs at each end, and also stools with cross rails,

that post assembly you cut the legs to length to stablise them.

so the dumb question is how do you guarantee that the rails are
horizontal if you subsequently cut the legs??? '

If Paul really means /horizontal/, then a spirit level needs to be used when setting up the table on a flat horizontal surface.

A patternmaker's mouse is very handy for scribing a set distance from the reference surface.

Incidentally, relying on legs of equal length and accurate mortising will not prevent wobble due to twist in the rails.
 
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