Kitchen Questions

[Shultzy]

I've just finished the design for our new kitchen. All the carcass and door/drawer panels are in oak faced mdf (18mm for carcasses). Having never made carcasses before I though I'd ask a few questions.

Base Units
Should the sides be on top of the bottom panel or at the side?
Do I need a top on the cabinet or will 4-6" wide strips at the front and back suffice?
Back panel thickness 6, 9, or 18mm?
Is a false panel between door and drawer to hide gap necessary? Will 4-6" wide strips suffice
Pocket hole or just carcass screws?
How to join adjacent cabinets?
Do I screw the base units at the top and bottom to the wall?

Wall Units
Hanging brackets or French cleats. Can I use 19mm mdf for cleats or is it too thin?

Doors/drawers are 22mm Oak (Euro or US, not sure) in Shaker style.

Should the corner tenons be deeper than the 10mm groove for the door/drawer panels? I'm assuming when the stiles, rails and panel are glued together they will be strong enough.

Thickness of panel in door 9 or 6mm

How much allowance for lights under wall cabinets?

Oak, what type of finish inside and doors?

I know I can make the doors, but I'm not sure whether to make the carcase units or buy?

 

[jasonB]

Base Units
Should the sides be on top of the bottom panel or at the side?

Usual to have sides full height and have the lug on the legs pick up the direct loading

Do I need a top on the cabinet or will 4-6" wide strips at the front and back suffice?

4" horizontal at front & back is oK with a thick back panel, if a thin back panel then fit the rear strip vertically

Back panel thickness 6, 9, or 18mm?

I prefer 18/19mm fitted inside the carcase not fitted to the back

Is a false panel between door and drawer to hide gap necessary? Will 4-6" wide strips suffice

Strip is fine

Pocket hole or just carcass screws?

Carcase screws where the sides of the carcase won't be seen Pocket on end panels if not using add on panels

How to join adjacent cabinets?

I usually put screws at teh front hidden by teh hinge plates and ones right in the back corners which hardly show

Do I screw the base units at the top and bottom to the wall?

I generally fix at teh top of each and down the sid eat teh end of a run with angle brackets.

Wall Units

Hanging brackets or French cleats. Can I use 19mm mdf for cleats or is it too thin?

Hanging brackets unless your walls are spot on as if you have to pack away from the wall with cleats it raises the cabinet.

Doors/drawers are 22mm Oak (Euro or US, not sure) in Shaker style.

Should the corner tenons be deeper than the 10mm groove for the door/drawer panels? I'm assuming when the stiles, rails and panel are glued together they will be strong enough.

I usually do 12mm groove & tennon

Thickness of panel in door 9 or 6mm

9mm on 22mm frame, 6mm on 18mm frame

How much allowance for lights under wall cabinets?

Depends on your lights

Oak, what type of finish inside and doors?

Current fav of mine is Smith & Rogers Aquacote

I know I can make the doors, but I'm not sure whether to make the carcase units or buy?[/quote]

 

[Shultzy]

Thanks Jason.

Usual to have sides full height and have the lug on the legs pick up the direct loading
Does that mean I need to put the legs right into the corners?

And another question :-
Should I lip the mdf or can I get the "iron-on" veneer in oak?

 

[jasonB]

No the legs mount onto the base but you will find they have a lip that sticks out one side to support the side.

Oak iron on will work just watch it on the bottom as sliding tins and heavy items in & out can catch it if not stuck on well though the real wood iron on seems to do this less than the melamine edging.

J

 

[Shultzy]

Thanks again Jason.

Hanging brackets - Are these the best type?

http://www.screwmaster.co.uk/pair-of-he ... s-57-p.asp

Are the wall hanging plates sufficient or is a hanger wall rail better?

If I use these hangers does that mean I should only put a 9mm back on the cabinets (instead of 18mm) inset by, say, 6mm?

Drawers.
I think I have three options:-
Make the whole drawer out of 12mm oak, dovetailed with a front - maybe too heavy and costly.
Make the whole drawer out of the same 18mm mdf as the carcasses with a front - maybe too heavy.
Use Blum METABOX and make the base, back, and front in 18mm mdf.

I'm going to use Blum soft close throughout for the drawer gear. There seems to be a baffling array of products for the drawers so I need a bit of guidance for which ones to get.

Stefan

 

[jasonB]

I've not used that particular one but looks fine for a visible hanger and you would want the 8mm backing MFC. There are ones that can mount behind the back panel but you do loose a bit of internal depth, you access the adjustment through a small hole that has a cover cap

http://www.woodfit.com/product_info.php ... Cover+Caps

If the wall is sound then the small plates are fine, the rail is good for stud walls as you can fix into each stud and then put the cabs where you like.

10-12mm oak on Blum Tandem runners is best option
MDF draws are weak and cumbersom
Metbox is a bit cheap and the runners are weak, Tandembox is far better.

J

 

[Lord Kitchener]

I like these hangers, they fit inside the cabinet, the claw reaches through the back panel which can be really thin (I use 6.5mm ply) as the weight is taken by the top and sides, not the back.
http://www.isaaclord.co.uk/productDetai ... t=3/365/33

I find 15mm ply on Blum Tandem runners to be ideal, as the drawers locate on the runners on the inside face of the drawer sides, and 15mm nicely fills the gap between the runner and the cabinet side.

 

[Shultzy]

Thanks Jason and Lord Kitchener.
I have one wall that is stud and one is solid, so I'll use the wall rail and hangers. I'm amazed at the price difference between Woodfit and elsewhere for the wall rail (£21.72 and under a fiver!)

I've noticed some suppliers mention the need for the Blum TANDEM Locking Device and others don't. Do I need them?

Stefan

 

[Lord Kitchener]

Thanks Jason and Lord Kitchener.
I have one wall that is stud and one is solid, so I'll use the wall rail and hangers. I'm amazed at the price difference between Woodfit and elsewhere for the wall rail (£21.72 and under a fiver!)

I've noticed some suppliers mention the need for the Blum TANDEM Locking Device and others don't. Do I need them?

You will need the locking devices, some firms (Woodfit) include them, and some (Isaac Lord) do not. The Woodfit rail is really good stuff, although the holes are a bit on the big side. I pay trade price which can be a lot less than the prices shown on the website, but I can't remember how much it is.

 

[Shultzy]

Lord Kitchener, do I need the drilling jig for the Blum Tandem runners or can I make my own. Is Isaac Lord trade only?

 

[Lord Kitchener]

Lord Kitchener, do I need the drilling jig for the Blum Tandem runners or can I make my own. Is Isaac Lord trade only?

You don't need a jig as long as you get the runners in the right place. You can just mark the hole positions and drill some pilot holes. Set the runners in 3-5mm from the edge of the carcase.

The best way to establish the correct position of the runners is to mount the drawer on the runners on the bench, then take some careful measurements from the base of the runners to the drawer itself, then figure out where the drawer has to go in the carcase, then you will now where to make the base line of the runners on the carcase sides.

 

[jasonB]

As LC says you don't need a drilling jig. If you are doing a lot of draws then make a template from a bit of say 6mm MDF that can be held against teh carcase and if you drill it 5mm then just use the template to guide a 5mm bradpoint bit or better still a 5mm dowel drill.

The 5mm hole suits the proper drawrunner screws and the first hole should be set back the standard 37mm just like you do with hinges.

Issac will supply anyone.

J

 

[Shultzy]

Thanks Jason, I have 17 drawers to make so making a template is ideal. I realised Issac wasn't trade only soon after I asked the question. Its a pity I can't go for trade, I could save £300 on my order.

 

[Lord Kitchener]

Its a pity I can't go for trade, I could save £300 on my order.

The prices on their web site are pretty much the same as their trade prices, you need to look at the quantities, with drawer runners once you get to 12+ the prices get quite good.

http://www.isaaclord.co.uk/productDetai ... =3/364/492

 

[jasonB]

Again as LC says it does not make much difference with Isaac's. Woodfit on the other hand are about 40% cheaper.

J

 

[Shultzy]

Jason, I don't think 40% would be enough. I've just costed a "D" type drawer (no base or back) from Lords and it was about £50 whereas Woodfit's was £111. Even with 40% that's nowhere near Lords.

 

[jasonB]

Funny enough I costed out some draws, hinges etc and the total was about £800 + VAT and woodfit (trade) were the cheapest by about £45 than Isaacs web site. The discount does depend on the actual items, amount and carrage can have a bearing on the total as Woodfit calculate it differently for trade than retail.

Have you allowed for Woodfits retail price being INCLUSIVE of VAT?


J

 

[Lord Kitchener]

I've not found Woodfit's prices, overall, to be very much different to Isaac Lord's, but although I'm within the IL van delivery range, I sometimes order from Woodfit because they do stock some items that IL don't. For instance I use the Woodfit cabinet feet because they are bigger and better that the IL ones, and Woodfit also stock the cabinet hanging rail that I like to use, plus their range of knobs and handles are good.

 

[Shultzy]

Jason, both Lords and Woodfit prices are inclusive of vat. As you have trade status with Woodfit could you find out how much a "D" type drawer (no base or back) would cost trade?

Drawer Sides ---------------358M5002S
Drawer Runners -----------559.5001B
Back Fixing Bracket -------Z30D000SG
Double Walled BOXSIDE --Z37H468S
Lateral Gallery Rails --------ZRG.446VG
Front Fixing Bracket-------ZSF.3502

 

[jasonB]

All plus vat, does look like Isaacs win on this one, maybe it was cheaper on the nickle finish.

Drawer Sides ---------------358M5002S £14.40
Drawer Runners -----------559.5001B £17.00
Back Fixing Bracket -------Z30D000SG £3.58
Double Walled BOXSIDE --Z37H468S £12.98
Lateral Gallery Rails --------ZRG.446VG £4.39
Front Fixing Bracket-------ZSF.3502 £1.56