Is it safe to glue 30cm of long grain to workto end grain ?

[baldpate]

Hi everybody,

my daughter has just had a small kitchen worktop intalled; the worktop is made of oak, 40mm thick x about 60cm deep, and is contructed in the typical way of 40mm square finger-jointed staves, glued side by side under pressure. The worktop is intalled between two chimney breasts, and so its cut ends project about 30cm beyond the chimney breast, the rearmost 30cm at each end being concealed by the chimey breasts.

My daughter doesn't like the look of the exposed cut ends, which of course show the cross-grain ends of the constituent blocks. We have an offcut from the worktop which is about 45cm long, so she has asked me if it is possible to cover the exposed ends by glueing on long-grain pieces cut from the off-cut - let's say pieces which are 20mm thick (x40mmx30cm of course).

I know that, above certain dimensions (e.g. on the ends of a table top), gluing long-grain to end-grain is an absolute no-no because of the differential rates of movemement. What I don't know is whether it can be safe to do on a smaller scale - specdifically, the dimensions I am talking about - i.e. gluing a 30cm piece of long grain onto 30cms of block end grain.

Please could you advise. If gluing would be a problem, could you suggest any other way of fixing ( reasonable neatly, that is)? The worktop is already installed, by the way.

Thanks for any advice.

Chris

 

[MMUK]

Could you not cut a piece in to each exposed end using a proper butt & scribe joint? You could even pocket screw it in from underneath after glueing

 

[RobinBHM]

If the worktop does not change in size, then it will glue ok.

Although gluing onto end grain is not recommended, modern centrally heated houses dont have much variation in humidity. So once the worktop has reached it equilibrium it should ok.

Id prefer the end grain personally, rather than a bit stuck on.........

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Biscuits? Probably not necessary, though - it's only 300mm. Just use a good glue, you'll be ok.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

I think you'll need to allow up to 1 mm or so for expansion and contraction. If you plane the edge of the piece to be applied to a very slight concavity and attach it to the existing end grain with three biscuits evenly spaced you'll probably be alright. Just glue the two outermost biscuits and the spaces between these two biscuits leaving the one nearest the back unglued. Clamp it all on tight, and the slight concavity should pull the whole up tight. Also cut the added piece so that its about 1 to 1.5 mm shorter than the space available leaving a 1 to 1.5 mm gap at the back after assembly. This means the front will line up, and if the worktop shrinks there's a bit of wiggle room at the back end. Instead of cutting the new piece ever so slightly short you could keep it full length and cut a bit of a recess in the plaster, if the chimney breast wall is plastered. Slainte.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

... modern centrally heated houses dont have much variation in humidity. So once the worktop has reached it equilibrium it should ok.

Not true. A typical house in the UK with decent insulation, climate control and the like will vary in RH from about 65% in the summer to anything down to as low as 30 to 40% in the winter. That's quite a swing in wood MC from about 6% at the low end to 12.5% at the high end. Wood never reaches EMC unless it's either: 1) Sealed completely from the effects of adsorption and desorption of water vapour (there's no such thing as a waterproof finish), or 2) kept in conditions of unvarying RH (never happens except in rigorously climate controlled environments, e.g., certain museum situations [archives for example] and specialised experimental laboratory conditions).

I'm not sure where you're getting your seasonal habitable building RH data from but the contention that RH in such places varies very little doesn't match my experience and research into the subject. Slainte.

 

[lanemaux]

Perhaps I'm missing something . Could you not glue and brad the middle third ?

 

[andersonec]

It sounds as though it has been left with a straight cut end, if that is the case then all that is needed is to rout a half inch roundover (or however the front edge is done) on the top edge and that will change the whole appearance, if it is fixed down then unscrew and pull forward to enable the full 300mm to be done but I suspect the tiles have been fixed and grouted
With the very good chance of getting damp from wiping with wet cloths, spills etc. then a strip along the end sounds like a bad idea to me, unless it is a very good joint any small gaps will allow food particles to collect (one reason the metal strip used to join worktops disappeared) and in any case I think it would look worse than at present, don't forget you are going to see the end grain on the front of your 20mm strip which could eventually split open.
I think it's the same with any new item a person is not quite happy with, if it's just a small unimportant visual thing, after a few short weeks they will soon get used to it and then not notice it.

 

[Ed209]

Wouldn't metal/brass strips look better be more suitable


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Phil Pascoe]

It sounds as though it has been left with a straight cut end, if that is the case then all that is needed is to rout a half inch roundover (or however the front edge is done) on the top edge and that will change the whole appearance, if it is fixed down then unscrew and pull forward to enable the full 300mm to be done but I suspect the tiles have been fixed and grouted
With the very good chance of getting damp from wiping with wet cloths, spills etc. then a strip along the end sounds like a bad idea to me, unless it is a very good joint any small gaps will allow food particles to collect (one reason the metal strip used to join worktops disappeared) and in any case I think it would look worse than at present, don't forget you are going to see the end grain on the front of your 20mm strip which could eventually split open.
I think it's the same with any new item a person is not quite happy with, if it's just a small unimportant visual thing, after a few short weeks they will soon get used to it and then not notice it.

Why would you have end grain on your 20mm strip - the whole point of having it there is to cover end grain? There's probably no access for a router?

 

[Mark-numbers]

If the OP is going to glue on a piece then End grain will be on show to the front edge of the worktop, unless he creates a mitred joint.

 

[Racers]

I made a table from 900mm work top with bread board ends using a ply spline, and a couple of days ago it had about a 1mm overhang at each end, it was flush when I made it.

Spline and dowels in the worktop, from underneath it you don't want to see them any other way will cause problems.

Pete

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Mark - Yes, I see your point. So why not reduce the thickness of the strip to say 6mm - then that's all that would show? Men on galloping horses, and all that. You could go on for ever worrying about a couple of mil here or there, but at the end of the day it's only a piece of worktop.

 

[Benchwayze]

Unless you mitre strips all the way around, there will be end grain showing on the edging-strips you attach. Just lightly round-over, sand and fill the grain, and polish well. Show your daughter how nice it can look. (it also proves that solid timber has been used, as opposed to veneered 'chip-rubbish'.)

Hmmm! I am repeating mostly what Mark-numbers said, but heck; he's right too!

 

[Graham Orm]

... modern centrally heated houses dont have much variation in humidity. So once the worktop has reached it equilibrium it should ok.

Not true. A typical house in the UK with decent insulation, climate control and the like will vary in RH from about 65% in the summer to anything down to as low as 30 to 40% in the winter. That's quite a swing in wood MC from about 6% at the low end to 12.5% at the high end. Wood never reaches EMC unless it's either: 1) Sealed completely from the effects of adsorption and desorption of water vapour (there's no such thing as a waterproof finish), or 2) kept in conditions of unvarying RH (never happens except in rigorously climate controlled environments, e.g., certain museum situations [archives for example] and specialised experimental laboratory conditions).

I'm not sure where you're getting your seasonal habitable building RH data from but the contention that RH in such places varies very little doesn't match my experience and research into the subject. Slainte.

Mine stays around 65% year round.....just saying.

Screws in slots about 2mm longer than the screw diameter with a cap over them from the same material. Not too difficult. Fix the one at the front tight so that the movement is at the rear or you will have an unsightly lip for half the year.

If the OP is going to glue on a piece then End grain will be on show to the front edge of the worktop, unless he creates a mitred joint.

This could be countered by putting a mitred return on the end of the piece (as if it were turning a corner and running along the front but dead ending into the endgrain) before fixing using superglue or a mitering adhesive.......edit...the mitered joint you mention but explained a bit more.

 

[glynster]

I'd pockethole screw it underneath where it wont be seen - and glue for extra bite - hell, I'd even fill the screw holes with dowel because I'm like that It wont go anywhere, end-grain or not. But seriosuly, I'd say that's a good time to use a pockethole jig without shame or a crushing-sense of failure LOL.

 

[Benchwayze]

The last time I used a pocket-hole jig (about two weeks ago) I didn't get a crushing sense of failure! I got a sense of 'Thank Jeepers I have produced something at last!' Instead of wallowing in self-pity, over all the niggly health things that happen to us when we exceed our allotted time (70 years is it? It's becoming too far back to remember.)

 

[custard]

... modern centrally heated houses dont have much variation in humidity. So once the worktop has reached it equilibrium it should ok.

Not true. A typical house in the UK with decent insulation, climate control and the like will vary in RH from about 65% in the summer to anything down to as low as 30 to 40% in the winter. That's quite a swing in wood MC from about 6% at the low end to 12.5% at the high end. Wood never reaches EMC unless it's either: 1) Sealed completely from the effects of adsorption and desorption of water vapour (there's no such thing as a waterproof finish), or 2) kept in conditions of unvarying RH (never happens except in rigorously climate controlled environments, e.g., certain museum situations [archives for example] and specialised experimental laboratory conditions).

I'm not sure where you're getting your seasonal habitable building RH data from but the contention that RH in such places varies very little doesn't match my experience and research into the subject. Slainte.

Can you post a link to any independent data? I measure the RH in my home and workshop and it's rarely outside the range 50-60%, the workshop has a slightly wider range but the highest figures are invariably in the winter, not the summer.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Mine stays around 65% year round.....just saying.

I find that hard to believe, unless you live in a very unusual house, or you're monitoring of RH conditions and record keeping are not as rigorous as they could be. RH conditions that vary minimally both diurnally and seasonally in a residential property is not something I've ever come across. Slainte.

 

[Mark-numbers]

To be honest - I am not sure what all the fuss is about? End grain is par for the course.