High or Low: A beginner's conundrum...and other questions...

[nabs]

On that note a quick plug for the englishwoodworker and his recent blog post on a his recommended list of tools to get going.

He makes a similar point: using simple set of essential tools helps learners to focus on technique and practice.
https://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/woodworking-hand-tools/

 

[Jacob]

On that note a quick plug for the englishwoodworker and his recent blog post on a his recommended list of tools to get going.

He makes a similar point: using simple set of essential tools helps learners to focus on technique and practice.
https://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/woodworking-hand-tools/

Excellent!
Slightly extravagant - I wouldn't bother with a holdfast. I've got one - they seem such an obvious essential, but in fact it hardly ever gets used.
One big omission; two bench hooks absolutely essential.

 

[richarddownunder]

NEW Good BU Plane such as Quangsheng 62 is Miles and miles better than a standard old-school plane, you need to have a real expertise to setup a regular old battered vintage plane to shave as smooth as the BU will do almost right out of the box..

I would rather use the hours needed to turn an old plane in to good plane in actually making something... + Again..People new to woodworking will have a rubbish experience with one of the old planes as they don't really know what they are doing + it's hard to actually learn without knowing what you should be getting.

A good 62 plane starts from 100-140pounds , a decent shape 5 1/2 will run you 40 ,sure you can tune up both to give same results but for me it took like half a year and number of days to actually ''learn'' how to do it properly and get the results I want & I still don't think I'm expert in it In actual billable hours It probably took me like 70-80 hours in research/trying out various things/learning the ways to sharpen it/shape it / etc... so even at minimum wage that's like 500pound investment just to get it working.. There's no way I'm getting that back..



I wish I had bought a new 62 plane right away...

All the old farts who have never actually tried a modern good 62 plane, please just don't comment nonsense...
Btw, I funded my Good tools by purchasing cheap old planes from ebay, fixing/polishing them up and selling for 3-5x more.. I have gone through at least 25 of the older stanley/records, not 1 plane I received was in the state of ''use it out of the box for smooth results'' ,a newcomer will simply have no idea what's wrong with an used plane and what needs doing to it to get it perfect- again they don't even know what results you should be getting from a good one as they have nothing to compare against..

Yes it's a cheap way to get in to woodworking.. but it's a waste of your time..

Well, I have been a beginner for 30+ years - still learning each time I make shavings and dust. I have 'wasted' hours and hours fixing up old planes, making planes and have spent quite a bit of dosh on some nice new Clifton ones because I wanted rather than needed them. I have enjoyed every minute and have a number of tools that I very much enjoy using to make stuff (along with some nice AI chisels etc) - they are all old friends. So it depends on your point of view. In the time 'wasted' fiddling with tools, I think I've grown to know how to use them better and how they respond in different circumstances. It doesn't really matter if its BU or BD. If you buy a reputable new plane it is likely to work well 'out of the box'. If you buy an old one (I personally like Record) and fettle it, it'll most likely work just about as well and you'll learn a whole lot in the process and probably enjoy the process. So here is my thought, if someone is that green that fixing a plane is a huge challenge or barrier (given the amount of info on the net on the topic - it ain't that hard), then cutting decent joints will also be a high hurdle ... so doing a woodwork night class or some short course, or joing a local group, or just visiting someone with experience will probably be the best investment and will advance them by years in a short time compared with struggling alone. My first woodwork class project was a wonky letterbox - I learned mostly what not to do. I've improved a bit since then but that course set the scene. There are plenty of better courses than the one I did too. Improvement has been a slow process but enjoyable and enjoyable is what hobby woodworking is all about, isn't it?
Cheers
Richard

 

[MikeG.]

........One big omission; two bench hooks absolutely essential.

Agreed. But they're not so much a tool as a jig, and something that even a complete beginner can make in 20 minutes.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Wash your mouth out - Jacob doesn't use jigs.

 

[Obi Wan Kenobi]

On that note a quick plug for the englishwoodworker and his recent blog post on a his recommended list of tools to get going.

He makes a similar point: using simple set of essential tools helps learners to focus on technique and practice.
https://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/woodworking-hand-tools/

I suppose then, by Mr David Roberts reasoning, this means that the English Woodworker is an old fart too :shock: At lease I'm part of a unique group :lol:

OWK ccasion5:

 

[MikeG.]

I've never heard of the English Woodworker, but on the face of it, I'm in complete agreement.

 

[nabs]

I've subscribed to a couple of his instructional video series (workbench and side table) and thought they were excellent. His background is furniture making, but he is a natural when it comes to teaching and very good at demystifying the basics while gradually introducing you into how to think about design and process.

Just what you want as a beginner.

He really does do pretty much everything with that limited set of tools too.

 

[Jacob]

The new boys on the block with their fancy planes, gadgets and obsessive sharpening techniques - it's as though somebody has re-written the books of how woodwork is/was done and substituted strange, impractical and expensive alternatives from outer space (out of the box!!).
It's thanks to a few old farts that simple trad woodwork hasn't been totally erased from consciousness. Very nearly was in my case - I fiddled for a long time with sharpening jigs until a road to Damascus moment when I twigged it was total bolloxx. It all got much easier after that!

 

[Jacob]

I've never heard of the English Woodworker, but on the face of it, I'm in complete agreement.

It's Richard MacGuire isn't it?

 

[nabs]

it is and he is one of the people still practicing traditional woodwork and encouraging others to do the same. He is not really an old fart, but luckily a lot of us who watch him are so we compensate!

 

[MikeG.]

I've never heard of the English Woodworker, but on the face of it, I'm in complete agreement.

It's Richard MacGuire isn't it?

Oh,OK. I've met him once or twice. Nice chap.

 

[Andy Kev.]

On that note a quick plug for the englishwoodworker and his recent blog post on a his recommended list of tools to get going.

He makes a similar point: using simple set of essential tools helps learners to focus on technique and practice.
https://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/woodworking-hand-tools/

He's very keen on keeping things straightforward and ungimmicky. On the other hand he's got a pragmatic attitude to newer things. Here for instance is his blog entry in which he sings the praises of ... wait for it ... the Veritas LA Jack plane!!!

https://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/bevel-up-plane/

It's worth pointing out that he is not trying to push BU planes as a replacement for BDs but rather he's making clear where their strengths and weaknesses lie and indeed where he thinks BDs are better. All of which is a world away from the trench warfare approach which we sometimes experience on here.

 

[Silly_Billy]

Andy, I’ve just read your link to the English Woodworker; I’d say you’ve answered the OP’s question!

 

[D_W]

I’d say you’ve answered the OP’s question!

I thought actually answering an OP's question was against the rules on internet forums!!

 

[Silly_Billy]

I thought actually answering an OP's question was against the rules on internet forums!!

Damn. Rumbled

 

[Chlad]

Good Mary mother of Jesus! Hornet's nest indeed :mrgreen:
But, seriously, I wasnt expecting anything less and I truly thank you all for taking the time to offer your advice. I can see the logic behind each argument.

I am not scared of putting hours of learning and effort into this hobby and I am the type who generally learns better by being thrown in the deep end. However, this is a hobby for me and I am conscious that it will remain as such. I will deal with one project at a time.

I was considering the LA Jack not to cut corners or because I saw it as being better than BU planes but because I saw it as an alternative and I have seen and read quite a few people rating them (Renaissance woodworker, Ron Hock, Peter Sellers, etc).

However at the same time I understand very well that there is a reason why the Bailey design has survived the test of time.

Just to clarify, the reason why I was thinking buying LN was not because I've got money burning in my pocket or because I got into the shiny posh new tool trap. I was merely applying the moto "you get what you pay for". At the same time I was thinking that having to mess around with restoring, flattening, etc on a used plane might prove to be offputing for someone like me (with virtually no experience and very basic knowledge in hand planes). Dont get me wrong, I am well aware that the sharpening is one of the main skills that I would need in this area. I was planning to get a decent sharpening jig (like the Veritas one) for this.

I have read articles describing issues with the Veritas blade thickness and issues and the Norris style it uses. I have also read about some issues with the Quangsheng brand and on top of that there also seems to be an ethical discussion going on as well. Clifton seems to be the nearest one can get to LN quality and there are only a few criticisms about the brand. LN seems to get top marks on every aspect (precision engineering, quality, customer service, etc).

I dot intend to buy many planes or build a collection of them. I can safely say that I might end up with a maximum of 2 or 3. So, for my first one, I am trying to choose a size which would be more universal. Hence why I thought that 62 would be the best one.

I paid a visit to my nearest Axminster store a couple of days ago to have a feel and try of the planes. The LN 62 was really nice to hold and use. Really nice shape and weight. The LN 5 1/2 was a tad heavier for my liking. They didnt have a no5 but judging by the dimensions provided on their website it should be quite similar to the 62. The 62 performed quite well on a piece of curly maple that was being used for demonstration which was rather impressive considering that, upon inspection, the blade as heavily damaged with dents all over it's cutting edge.

I am well aware that the internet hype (coupled with man's innate attraction to shiny metal stuff) can play havoc with one's impulses and on a few ocassions I have purchassed stuff which I could have done without or that a cheaper version would have been just as good (recent Festool plunge saw comes to mind ).

But one thing puzzles me: Are LN planes just hype? Or are we saying that all that fancy stuff is not worth the money they ask for?

 

[Chlad]

if someone is that green that fixing a plane is a huge challenge or barrier (given the amount of info on the net on the topic - it ain't that hard), then cutting decent joints will also be a high hurdle ...

The problem with the info on the internet is that it's so conflicting that newcomers get often caught in a net of confusion which stops them from throwing that first step. So, whilst the actual process of fixing may not be hard the actual process of getting there is a lot harder. I think.

... so doing a woodwork night class or some short course, or joing a local group, or just visiting someone with experience will probably be the best investment and will advance them by years in a short time compared with struggling alone.

I decided to enquire into doing a beginner bricklaying course not long ago.Just so that I could get enough knowledge to build a simple brick garden wall. I very quickly gave up on the idea as soon a I was able to recover from the shock I got when I was quoted £4k for the pleasure :shock: :shock: . So if woodworking classes or courses cost that sort of amount (which I suspect they might do) then I have no intention of getting shocked twice.

However the idea of joining a local group or meeting with someone experienced is quite interesting. If anyone here knows of any groups in Cheshire, or is from Cheshire and has the time and inclination to help a newstarter, please let me know.

By the way, if I did go the path of getting an old plane of Ebay what should I look for? Is it a question of hit and miss? Would something like this be any good? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fully-Restor ... Swx4xa1MZ0

 

[Woody2Shoes]

I have read articles describing issues with the Veritas blade thickness and issues and the Norris style it uses. I have also read about some issues with the Quangsheng brand and on top of that there also seems to be an ethical discussion going on as well. Clifton seems to be the nearest one can get to LN quality and there are only a few criticisms about the brand. LN seems to get top marks on every aspect (precision engineering, quality, customer service, etc).

I paid a visit to my nearest Axminster store a couple of days ago to have a feel and try of the planes. The LN 62 was really nice to hold and use. Really nice shape and weight. The LN 5 1/2 was a tad heavier for my liking. They didnt have a no5 but judging by the dimensions provided on their website it should be quite similar to the 62. The 62 performed quite well on a piece of curly maple that was being used for demonstration which was rather impressive considering that, upon inspection, the blade as heavily damaged with dents all over it's cutting edge.
But one thing puzzles me: Are LN planes just hype? Or are we saying that all that fancy stuff is not worth the money they ask for?

I own and use vintage Stanley/Record and QS (via Workshop Heaven) planes, also LN and Veritas tools (other than bench planes):

- All of them (with correct set-up) work just fine.
- Living in the UK, I see no ethical problem with Chinese stuff - LN "copied" the Stanley designs, Quansheng copied them too - we all consume Chinese-made stuff, and why not.
- For me, Clifton and LN hand planes are beautifully made (I perceive, rightly or wrongly, possible quality control issues with Clifton but nothing a good quality retailer couldn't put right) but are too expensive for me. I find that QS hits the "sweet spot" of quality, in terms of design, materials and construction - I struggle to see the point of paying more for LN/Clifton.

Are LN planes just hype? No, but they are expensive - both in absolute terms (for my personal circumstances) and relative to the bang-for-buck you get from QS (which is pretty much indistinguishable in use) or from old-timey Stanley/Record.

I have both a QS 5 1/2 and a QS62 - for me, the only downside with BD planes the only hassle is having to remove the chipbreaker for sharpening - the two downsides with BU planes are that cambering the blade is harder (although Derek Cohen gives an excellent "how-to" on this) and I personally find the Norris adjuster tedious.

I've ignored Veritas - their quality of design/materials/construction is excellent but they also make some real innovations in design and use of materials - usually, but not always - with success. I don't much like their bench planes because of the price (and the Norris adjuster!) but I have loads of their other stuff.

The two planes I use most are my old Stanley No4 and my QS 5 1/2 (the weight, giving momentum, is an advantage in many situations).

Good luck! W2S

 

[richarddownunder]

if someone is that green that fixing a plane is a huge challenge or barrier (given the amount of info on the net on the topic - it ain't that hard), then cutting decent joints will also be a high hurdle ...

The problem with the info on the internet is that it's so conflicting that newcomers get often caught in a net of confusion which stops them from throwing that first step. So, whilst the actual process of fixing may not be hard the actual process of getting there is a lot harder. I think.

... so doing a woodwork night class or some short course, or joing a local group, or just visiting someone with experience will probably be the best investment and will advance them by years in a short time compared with struggling alone.

I decided to enquire into doing a beginner bricklaying course not long ago.Just so that I could get enough knowledge to build a simple brick garden wall. I very quickly gave up on the idea as soon a I was able to recover from the shock I got when I was quoted £4k for the pleasure :shock: :shock: . So if woodworking classes or courses cost that sort of amount (which I suspect they might do) then I have no intention of getting shocked twice.

However the idea of joining a local group or meeting with someone experienced is quite interesting. If anyone here knows of any groups in Cheshire, or is from Cheshire and has the time and inclination to help a newstarter, please let me know.

By the way, if I did go the path of getting an old plane of Ebay what should I look for? Is it a question of hit and miss? Would something like this be any good? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fully-Restor ... Swx4xa1MZ0

LOL, I'd volunteer but I'm a bit far away. I got keen on knifemaking a few years back. Visited a local bloke and it was the best thing I could have done. Only spent a couple of hours but made all the difference and saved me untold disappointment. The rest I picked up from you tube and am now far enough on to do my own thing. Also joined a local wood turning group for a while. Got a bit bored with turning but still learned a lot. The Record 5 looks OK from here. Don't know if that is the going price in the UK - could probably get one cheaper if pennies count. Personally, I'd prefer to get an honest non-restored one and do it myself.

(I perceive, rightly or wrongly, possible quality control issues with Clifton but nothing a good quality retailer couldn't put right)

I think they have been very good for quite a while now. All mine (4 of them) are of an excellent standard. But I guess occasionally one slips through as they do with any manufacturer. In any case Thomas Flinn are very helpful IMHO and experience and would, no doubt, put it right. And they are small local manufacturer, for you, which I still believe is worth supporting.

cheers
Richard