hand cut bridle joint

[russ_1380]

Afternoon all.

These last few days I have been trying to do some hand cut joints; corner lap joint and corner bridle joint.

I am using a tenon saw and chisel.

I can cut the wastage off with the saw on the bridle joint, but then I have to tidy it up with a chisel. When I do this, I struggle to keep the area nice and flat, leaving gaps or a loose joint. Plus there is limited room to fit a chisel into the slot.

Does anyone know of any links to good websites that detail how to cut straight and flat with a hand saw? I have been told that a skilled woodworker can cut these joints with saw alone, with no need to tidy up with a chisel. I need to brush up my handcutting skills.

Many thanks

R

 

[Anonymous]

Russ

try cleaning with a plane - e.g. shoulder plane

 

[russ_1380]

cheers Tony

I also tried using a friend's thinner kerf blade. That seemed to be more easy to control.

I think I will invest in a dovetail saw or Japanese item plus lots and lots more practice.

Do many people on here use Japanese saws?

 

[Racers]

Hi,

Bridle joints are very difficult to do right, harder than dovetails in some ways, lots of practise is needed, just wait until you try a mitered bridle joint, they do look good when you get them right.

Thats the best corner :wink:

I use japanese saws and western back saws, the japanese are good but a lot depends on you, can you borrow one to try out?


Pete

 

[matthewwh]

When paring a joint with a chisel it's generally a good idea to have a squared up piece of scrap clamped to the outside face to guide the beginning of the final cut. Pare down to just a fraction above the line (the closer you can get it the less force you will need for the finishing cut and therefore more control you will have on the one that counts).

In the case of a bridle joint (and many others) you can undercut to ensure a perfect fit. Once you have arrived at your layout line, take the tip of the chisel just past the edge of the timber and lift the handle by a couple of degrees and pare towards the centreline of the timber and repeat from the other side. By hollowing out the middle of the joint you can be sure that nothing will impede the mating of your perfectly prepared edges - which is the bit that everyone will see.

It's not cheating, it is absolutely correct and normal practice for handwork, the whole idea that everything should be at precisely 90 degrees is a symptom of over reliance on power tools.

If you are not already used to western saws then I would give Japanese ones a try, much easier to achieve really accurate results and if you don't have to un-learn something before you start you have a head start on those that do.

 

[russ_1380]

cheers lads

Lots of good tips there. I forgot to add (you probably guessed by now; I'm a beginner).

That lap joint is excellent, I would be extremely proud if I could achieve that level of neatness by hand.

I have used a Japanese saw once but only very quickly, I remember it felt a lot nicer to use than my tenon saw. After reading about them, I will invest in one for joint making.

I will try that hollowing out technique tomorrow.

As far as Japanese saws go, what tpi do you recommend? I want this saw specifically for joint work and eventually fine joints such as dovetails.

Thanks

Russ

 

[russ_1380]

I was thinking along the lines of this maybe?

http://workshopheaven.com/cgi-bin/cp-ap ... anese+Saws

 

[matthewwh]

Hi Russ,

Why not try one? If you're not chuffed to bits with it on the first cut, just send it back and I'll give you a full refund including all shipping costs.

 

[russ_1380]

nice one

I didn't realise that was your place

I'll have a look tonight, I also saw you did a razor gents saw, I think 40tpi.

Would this be another option? I'm thinking of starting the cut with this (get it all nice and straight) and then move on to something courser.

R

 

[Ironballs]

Don't be too hard on yourself when you're trying to cut a corner bridle, as the others have said it is one of the hardest joints to get right and much of your work is on show.

However, if you hone your skills on joints like this you'll be well set up for the future. Tool wise I'd just go for a good tenon saw and a nice sharp chisel - do you have a good method for sharpening your tools?

 

[russ_1380]

Hi Ironballs

Yeah I'm at college so have been shown how to use a tormek and a manner of other gear.

I'm going in tomorrow to keep practicing, I'll get the hang of it one day

 

[Anonymous]

cheers Tony

I also tried using a friend's thinner kerf blade. That seemed to be more easy to control.

I think I will invest in a dovetail saw or Japanese item plus lots and lots more practice.

Do many people on here use Japanese saws?

I used to use Japanese saws until I used a good quality european saw. With hard wwods, you are most definitely better off with a good european saw (not the B&Q dross etc.)

i still have 3 Japanese saws and do use them, but rarely and not in very hard woods

 

[dunbarhamlin]

The silly person (i.e. me) proof way to true a malcut lap joint (provided it has been left thick) is with a router (tea and bicuits or electric powered)
In their absence, my fave tool is a float, which will also work for the female part of bridle joints (a chisel reground as a scraper works the same)

Treat the joint the same as a tennon for cutting - first establishing the kerf across the end grain and then extending this down one side of the long grain at a time. This approach means you can concentrate on only one component of 'straight' at a time (straight across first, and then straight down) - thanks to Woodbloke for sorting me out with this.

Unless your workpieces are tiny, a razor saw would not be efficient - ideal is usually to have as few as eight teeth in the cut at any time.
I cut some bridle joints for a bench a fortnight ago (4" square stock) and used a 4 1/2 tpi rip saw - no clean up required thanks to the above technique.

Cheers
Steve

 

[woodbloke]

Hand cut bridles are difficult to cut 'cos all the parts of the joint are 'exposed'...there's nothing hidden, so any mistakes stand out a mile. In some ways they're more difficult to cut accurately than dovetails. These joints were recently cut in teak, using a LN cross cut tenon saw (a rip pattern tooth would have been better) and there was an element of fettling with a chisel to make them fit:

The really big advantage of bridle joints though is that cramping pressure can be applied:

directly over the top and at the sides to pull up the joint - Rob

 

[Ironballs]

Have we coined the phrase "Joint Tart" yet Rob :wink:

Nice tight bridle that

 

[woodbloke]

Have we coined the phrase "Joint Tart" yet Rob :wink:

Nice tight bridle that

Well at least they didn't go through the bloody bandsaw Damian :lol: :lol: - Rob (with a nice tot of Laphroaig quarter cask in hand :lol: )

 

[matthewwh]

I also saw you did a razor gents saw, I think 40tpi.
R

Way too fine, these are OK for cutting very small pieces of beading, inlay, sleepers for hornby railways etc.

The Gyokucho saws give an extremely high level of performance per £ and are very easy to get on with. If you're after something you can fall head over heels in love with though, I've recently commissioned these from Thomas Flynn.

Nice joints by the way Rob!

 

[woodbloke]

I also saw you did a razor gents saw, I think 40tpi.
R

Way too fine, these are OK for cutting very small pieces of beading, inlay, sleepers for hornby railways etc.


Nice joints by the way Rob!

Matthew - try telling than to Robert Ingham...he uses a Zona razor saw to cut dovetails - Rob...still having 'sippers' of the Laphroaig :lol:

 

[Ironballs]

I'll see your Laphroaig with a Bishop's Finger and raise you an Old Peculier

 

[woodbloke]

I'll see your Laphroaig with a Bishop's Finger and raise you an Old Peculier

Damian - sippers almost gone...probably time for another wee one before the wooden hill - Rob