Hancock's Half Hour

[Rorschach]

you can't save people from C19, you can only delay.

Isn't the point to try protect as many people as possible in the hope that a vaccine and / or therapeutic treatments can be developed? That's what I understood.

How long do you wait for that? A SARS COV1 vaccine has been in production for 8 years and we still don't have it, indeed we have never successfully managed to create a coronavirus vaccine for any strain.

And who are you protecting? Most of the people who will die from C19 will die before a vaccine could be developed. The young don't even need protecting.

 

[Chris152]

It's possible that no vaccine or treatments can be developed; I don't think that makes the case for assuming that they won't and just letting the virus run through the population. Certainly most of the developed world seems to think it's worth delaying the spread as the search continues.

 

[RogerS]

Rorsarch you are so full of effluent on this it almost literally brings tears to my eyes. Ask any person on this planet about this and they would all rather be poor and alive than rich and dead!

Succinctly put, my friend. The new forum troll has emerged.

 

[Rorschach]

I think you will find most of the world has been concentrating on making sure their health systems are not overloaded (that danger has long passed, indeed it never became much of a danger). Countries are now realising this is not a big deal and are starting to open up. Italy is open for tourism next week, Spain in a few weeks.

 

[Droogs]

Still spouting from your backside rorsarch. None of us know what it's like to be poor! as you say, well you have definately not read any of my early posts have you

When I joined this formum it was as I started to find my feet again after having lived for 18 months under a plastic sheet hidden in the bushes of a public park. No benefits of any kind given to me as not elligable as I had been working overseas for the UN working with refugees and the war crimes commission but none of that mattered regarding getting help once I was back. for all that time I ate regularly 3 times a week as that was when the Cyrenian's soup kitchen was open any other time was foraging in bins literally at the back of Greggs. Ididn't even own the clothes I was in as they had been donated to me. In that situation can't get a job as no address, can't get an address asno job etc.
DO NOT SAY PEOPLE HAVE NO IDEA - YOU HAVE NO CLUE TO PEOPLES BACKGROUND.

It was only because of the kindness of strangers that I made it through that period at all, so yeah far better poor than dead.

I wish you all the best and prosperity but you as far as I am concerned you are a heartless, selfish cad

 

[Chris152]

I think you will find most of the world has been concentrating on making sure their health systems are not overloaded (that danger has long passed, indeed it never became much of a danger). Countries are now realising this is not a big deal and are starting to open up. Italy is open for tourism next week, Spain in a few weeks.

Surely that's in recognition of the need to have a functioning economy, the absence of which would also be disastrous - I've heard no reports that those countries consider the threat of the virus not to be a big deal.
I think it's a good thing to consider possibilities, but it can be a bad thing to latch onto one of those possibilities and lose sight of the others that challenge it.

 

[Rorschach]

Still spouting from your backside rorsarch. None of us know what it's like to be poor! as you say, well you have definately not read any of my early posts have you

When I joined this formum it was as I started to find my feet again after having lived for 18 months under a plastic sheet hidden in the bushes of a public park. No benefits of any kind given to me as not elligable as I had been working overseas for the UN working with refugees and the war crimes commission but none of that mattered regarding getting help once I was back. for all that time I ate regularly 3 times a week as that was when the Cyrenian's soup kitchen was open any other time was foraging in bins literally at the back of Greggs. Ididn't even own the clothes I was in as they had been donated to me. In that situation can't get a job as no address, can't get an address asno job etc.
DO NOT SAY PEOPLE HAVE NO IDEA - YOU HAVE NO CLUE TO PEOPLES BACKGROUND.

It was only because of the kindness of strangers that I made it through that period at all, so yeah far better poor than dead.

I wish you all the best and prosperity but you as far as I am concerned you are a heartless, selfish cad

I am sorry to hear of your situation but glad you are doing better now. My question is, do you want to go back to that? What if that situation was the rest of your life from now on and there isn't food in the back of greggs to help because there are dozens of other people fighting for it?
Your situation was awful but you were able to get out of it because we had a system that allowed you to get back on your feet, what if we had a system that was making people poorer and homeless, do you think you would have been able to get help then?

I am not heartless or selfish, I might be a cad. I want the vast majority of people in country to be safe, happy, healthy and comfortable. I am willing to let a tiny fraction of very elderly people die a little bit early for that to happen. 10% of over 80's die every year regardless and we don't blink at that. 1% of the entire population dies every year, we don't blink at that. Saving lives at any cost is not realistic or sustainable.

 

[doctor Bob]

The outrage is strong today, yet merely a few days ago people were hoping the stupid would catch covid and die on this very forum!!!! Would it be as acceptable substitute "stupid" with fat or unhealthy or old, doubt it but who knows, you lot change the rules of engagement daily, seems to always be the case in these debates.
Is "morally outraged" contagious ...............

 

[Andy Kev.]

I'll meet peopleon middle ground on the arguement.
In my opinion the country needs to start opening up, as safely and quickly as possible.

However, there will be a lot of families (banging the drum for more furlough, more remain at home and no schools this year, keep business closed, there are plenty of them, go on facebook) who in 2 years time have lost their employment, heavily morgaged homes, lease car and living on universal credit, I'm sure that 3 month summer furlough won't look quite so appealing then.
Redundancy is starting to kick in now due to companies smelling the coffee and realising the rules of redundancy and time lines, June and july will be massive for unemployment.

This arguement about employers greed, is mental, it's not about greed it's about survival and keeping employment of employees. The biggest recession in history is coming. The young fit healthy kids are being screwed over.
People have mentioned "making money" on here as though it's a dirty illness, well lets also be frankly honest and say if you are obese (which seems to be a major issue with covid 19)) then glutteny has cost us all dearly (controversial and non PC, I accept, however I'm open minded and will listen to all arguements put forward by those upset, on the benefits of being grossly overweight). The sad thing is, the past 3 months have been such an opportunity to get healthier, IMHO the fit have got fitter and somehow the fat have got fatter.

I fear that taking some sort of middle way is inevitable.

If you could give an individual the scenario of the choice of an assured death for him/her and a prostrate economy, I suspect that many would go for the latter and few would be altruistic enough to opt for their own death and the greater good. I don't criticise people for that as we are all human beings. OTH if I were a PM or President, I would realise that my position demands of me a certain capacity for dehumanisation i.e. I would almost certainly have to opt for a course which accepted a certain amount of deaths which could be dramatised as a de facto decision to condemn a number of people to death. That has already happened in every country on the planet and it will continue to be the case.

The question is the extent to which any nation's voters accept their government's decision. I suspect that their is a reluctant and sad acceptance of that risk in most countries - but how do those feel who assess themselves as being in the assured death category? This pandemic represents one of the few sets of circumstances where I have a degree of sympathy for political leaders.

We have surely learned - or so you would hope - that complete lockdown can only ever be a short term measure and it can only ever be properly carried out if we have made advanced provision for it e.g. if, for instance, the country holds stocks of NBC respirators for every man woman and child. If that were the case and airports and ports had been closed down, the disease would have been completely stopped in 3 - 4 weeks.

But then you have to wonder why we don't do that for the flu? It might turn out that covid is essentially no worse than flu. Have we witnessed a case of international panic? We'll have to wait a while to be certain about what we have been dealing with.

What I am sure about is that the pandemic has brought out all the worst and best human traits. I'm utterly sick of arts and humanities graduate journalists pontificating about the matter as if they have spent the last decade in a virology laboratory and I'm equally sick of politicians trying to make politics out of it. The WHO has lost its name - deservedly so and in one of extremely few matters where I find myself agreeing with Trump - and should suffer a severe wave of sackings. And of course there have been the clueless rantings of the uninformed in general (served up on a silver platter here and in many other places).

All in all I think that it has been a depressingly ordinary extraordinary event in terms of H. sapiens' response to it. I'm just glad I've got some wood to plane.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Rorsarch you are so full of effluent on this it almost literally brings tears to my eyes. Ask any person on this planet about this and they would all rather be poor and alive than rich and dead!

Succinctly put, my friend. The new forum troll has emerged.

Just as I thought how civilised things were without SuperTroll.

 

[Chris152]

I'm utterly sick of arts and humanities graduate journalists pontificating about the matter as if they have spent the last decade in a virology laboratory and I'm equally sick of politicians trying to make politics out of it.

This discussion's as much about an ethical problem as it is about a virus. It reflects the issues being faced throughout the country. You don't generally turn to virologists to tackle ethical problems tho no doubt they might have stuff to contribute.

 

[Andy Kev.]

I'm utterly sick of arts and humanities graduate journalists pontificating about the matter as if they have spent the last decade in a virology laboratory and I'm equally sick of politicians trying to make politics out of it.

This discussion's as much about an ethical problem as it is about a virus. It reflects the issues being faced throughout the country. You don't generally turn to virologists to tackle ethical problems tho no doubt they might have stuff to contribute.

That hasn't stopped ill-educated clowns in the media repeatedly going off at half-cock and often without thought for the possible effects of their witterings. We can all consider ethics at leisure (something, incidentally from which I think we would all benefit, although the fewest seem to do it) but it is not something for the half-witted to do in the heat of a panicky public space. Moral philosophy is a matter for thoughtful and careful consideration. It is not something which lends itself to an "In case of emergency, break glass" response. It is also far too important to be purely the preserve of academics and media luvvies.

 

[doctor Bob]

The new forum troll has emerged.

The amazing thing is it's always you they seem to fall out with................. quite a curiosity, gotta be just coincidence.

 

[Rorschach]

Rorsarch you are so full of effluent on this it almost literally brings tears to my eyes. Ask any person on this planet about this and they would all rather be poor and alive than rich and dead!

Succinctly put, my friend. The new forum troll has emerged.

Just as I thought how civilised things were without SuperTroll.

I prefer to think of myself as a controversialist or an agitator. There are clearly some here who don't have a grasp on the reality of life for the working classes. They are also hypocritical at one time saying people who go out should die but at another saying there is no limit to how much we should spend to save a life.

You might see me as a troll but I do confine my trolling to this post and people are free to ignore me if they wish. On other posts I try to be helpful and share what knowledge I have in a friendly manner. I should also note I have not been rude here, expect maybe a little bit to RogerS, but he started it! lol

 

[Chris152]

It is also far too important to be purely the preserve of academics and media luvvies.

I do wonder what percentage of your posts don't involve insulting what somebody else does for a living ak.

 

[RogerS]

.... Certainly most of the developed world seems to think it's worth delaying the spread as the search continues.

And as does anyone with an ounce of human compassion...clearly lacking in a certain quarter.

 

[RogerS]

The new forum troll has emerged.

The amazing thing is it's always you they seem to fall out with................. quite a curiosity, gotta be just coincidence.

Nah...you're imagining things, Bobble.

 

[selectortone]

you can't save people from C19, you can only delay.

Isn't the point to try protect as many people as possible in the hope that a vaccine and / or therapeutic treatments can be developed? That's what I understood.

How long do you wait for that? A SARS COV1 vaccine has been in production for 8 years and we still don't have it, indeed we have never successfully managed to create a coronavirus vaccine for any strain.

And who are you protecting? Most of the people who will die from C19 will die before a vaccine could be developed. The young don't even need protecting.

Without the lockdown The NHS would have been swamped. As it was, it was a close-run thing for a few weeks. Without the lockdown they would have run out of ventilators, oxygen, PPE and all the rest. The staff would not have been able to cope. Triage would have been the order of the day. People would have been left to die in ambulances, corridors hospital car parks and worse.

Lockdown has allowed at least a semblance of order, belated as it was. Every week has allowed new systems of social distancing to be developed, further research into effective treatments, development of vaccines, etc., etc.

It's been a pain in the buttocks. I'm a widower, living alone and I have desperately missed my kids and my grandchildren. I have some solace in my workshop and my lathe, but I'm desperate for a hug from my little granddaughter. But like just about everyone I know, I will continue to put up with lockdown because of the lesser burden on the NHS and consequently, from an entirely selfish standpoint, the better chance I will have of surviving covid-19 if and when I catch it.

 

[Lons]

Pretty sure I was saying this and calling him on out on having this viewpoint a month ago - I don't wish bankruptcy on anyone, but if you are still alive, you've got the chance to reverse it.

Dead, you don't.

I'm glad someone else now sees it - although I'll be honest I never actually expect rorschach to say it openly in such a callous manner - "we can't save them, so let's get back to making (me) money".

You're wasting your time, it isn't the first time he's said it and been challenged so he's not going to change his mind. He presumably has no parents who would now be elderly and vulnerable, or doesn't care for them or wouldn't have been suggesting as he did once before that they be allowed to die. As it happens he got his wish as many of those in care homes were turned away from the hospitals and didn't survive.

I don't know rorschach or what he does for a living but found his remarks callous, distasteful and the way he presented his personal opinions and google links as fact reminded me of another member who now has disappeared.

 

[Andy Kev.]

It is also far too important to be purely the preserve of academics and media luvvies.

I do wonder what percentage of your posts don't involve insulting what somebody else does for a living ak.

I'm not bothered about what people do for a living as long as is not criminal or detrimental to others. I'm not even usually bothered if somebody does their job sub-optimally, unless it has damaging consequences for others.

However, the public space which is essentially political and medial, tends to be occupied by those whom we group under the umbrella of "the chattering class" and that involves politicians, media types, the quangocracy, academe and to an extent the legal profession. Were all of those people to drop dead tomorrow (God forbid: I do recognise them as my fellow human beings), they would go largely unmissed and unmourned (except by their immediate families) although the taxpayer would probably be grateful. A few who have genuine functions would have to be replaced in the short to medium term.

The problem with the chattering class is that they have little to do other than chatter. They certainly rarely get involved in anything that most of us would regard as productive or necessary. Every time I read of e.g. Oxbridge banning somebody or no platforming somebody else, I am reminded of the old adage that "The Devil makes work for idle hands". Personally I take the unimplementable view that there are certain positions which should only be open to people who can demonstrate at least ten years of productive labour in the real world beforehand.

And finally, one of the great saving graces of the British is that we do not take intellectuals seriously and are instinctively suspicious of them (cf the French who actually give them honours!) I don't dislike all intellectuals. For instance, I would heartily recommend the collected journalism of the late Anthony Burgess, everybody should be given a copy of I Drink, Therefore I Am by the late Prof. Scruton and the reading of God Is Not Great by the equally late Christopher Hitchens should be on the curriculum in all schools. All that said, we should remain deeply suspicious of people presenting themselves as intellectuals.