Gouges and Chuck

[Andrewbullie]

Tomorrow I pick up my new lathe, it's a SIP 01490 which I hope will last me a couple of years until I get some experience.

So, I now need the chuck and the tools. The guy in the local Machine Mart recommended the Record scroll chuck for about £120. But for the tools to do the job I have no idea.

At this stage I don't want to buy the absolute best, but I at least want a decent set may be £150 worth?

Any advice about the chuck and tool types would be greatly appreciated.

 

[=Adam=]

Hi Andrew,

With regards to the chuck, the record g3 is a good chuck to get as it is compatible with the sorby, vicmarc and many other brands of jaw! It is also a very well made piece of kit!

You could also look at the Axminster option (the k10 clubman), I feel that these are slightly better value for money as the accessories are quite a bit cheaper than the record, however that being said.... I would still get the record.

To put it out there, I ordered the Axminster k10 and I'm not overly impressed with it so I am going to send it back and get the record!

Now regarding tools, I have bought pretty much all of my ones from eBay an have always paid around £10 per tool, these prices are bargains as on average each tool would cost anywhere from £25 and up!

If you want to get a starter set then I would say that you won't I far wrong with the Axminster hss set for about £80, I have used these and cannot fault them for the price!

I hope this helps!

 

[Andrewbullie]

Adam,

Thanks for the advice, I think I will opt for the record chuck. As for the tools, my only concern with a second hand set is that I am not familiar with what they should be like when new. If the previous owner had took them to a grinding wheel and done a bad job, I wouldn't know how to put it right. Maybe I am not thinking in the right way here but my thoughts were that if I bought a set new then I would become familiar with how they need to be kept?

On another note, have you ever heard of this lathe before SIP 01490? It sounds like a decent machine.... Variable speed, cast iron construction including legs and 48" between centres.

Another thing, when I practice turning, do you think I would get away with using cheap 2 x 2 off cuts just to get familiar for a few weeks before trying something more expensive or is the wood too poor quality?

Many thanks

Andrew

 

[Spindle]

Hi

If you are budgeting up to £150 for a starter set i would recommend you give these serious consideration:

https://www.turners-retreat.co.uk/produ ... g-tool-set

They were the first tools I bought when I took up turning 10+ years ago, they are very good quality and you will use all of the tools. Ashley Isles tooling is also highly rated and within your budget however I have no experience of using them.

2 x 2 blanks will be fine to practice your spindle and box turning skills.

If you're looking for a good book on turning, Keith Rowley's 'Woodturning A Beginners's Course' is excellent.

Regards Mick

 

[chipmunk]

IMHO 1MT and 3/4 x 16TPI is only used on low-end lathes (light blue touch paper and run :wink: )

So, unless any future lathe you buy also has the same 3/4 x 16TPI, your chuck body may have limited life when you change your lathe. My recomendation would therefore be to buy a cheaper chuck body compatible with other good quality jaw-sets. That way any investment in jaw sets will not be wasted when you upgrade. This may change your view of the Axminster K10 chuck body since any jaws and carriers you buy will fit their new SPC chuck.

You will still have your tools when you change lathes and so I'd be more inclined to buy some decent HSS tools rather than a budget unbranded range. If money is tight then buy Crown rather than Henry Taylor or Sorby but avoid the cheaper unbranded sets. If you search the forum for first tool recommendations then you will find lots of good suggestions.

The problem with boxed sets is that they seem cheap and attractive and certainly look nice because they all match, but you will almost certainly not use all of them initially and probably need to buy additional tools outside the set.

HTH
Jon

 

[henton49er]

Personally, I would go for a cheaper chuck such as the Fox FX4000 (served me very well for my first two years of turning). Tou could then afford a second set of jaws to give a variety of work holding options.

If you buy a set of tools you may not use some of them. But it is an easy way to start off. Henry Taylor, Sorby, Ashley Iles, Crown are all good makes - believe me you could spend £££s on tools and still not have anywhere near enough!

 

[=Adam=]

I didn't realise that the lathe was 3/4 x 16! However it doesn't matter as many of the chucks come with the ability to change the inserts!

An insert from record only costs £20, therefore there is no reason to have to sell the chuck with the lathe. The only reason I sold my one as a package was because the new record set comes with three sets of jaws, a woodworm screw and a warranty, whereas my one just had the 2" jaws, so by the time I would have bought the rest of it to adapt for the new lathe, it would have cost my around £15 more to get a new one haha!

 

[chipmunk]

Adam,
Yes, it's rather an odd lathe - it looks as if it should have a bigger spindle but doesn't. I'm not sure how SIP can really claim it's a heavy duty lathe :wink:

I agree that a chuck with threaded inserts would give an easier upgrade path but it will probably be more expensive initially. I guess I was just trying to sow seeds of doubt that a chuck is not like a dog, it isn't for life - it might just be for Christmas :wink:

Jon

 

[=Adam=]

There isn't much difference between the costs of the chucks in all honesty! If anything the Axminster is the more expensive in the kit form, plus you get more with the record than the Axminster.

I think you need to have a look around at the different chucks to make your mind up, but the best thing I can recommend is to take your time, don't rush it as you may regret it!

 

[Spindle]

Hi

I'm a little bemused by the recommendations to avoid buying starter tool sets and go for individual tools.

In my opinion anyone new to turning who has not decided to specialise in either bowl or spindle turning should consider buying the following tools:

Spindle Work

Roughing Gouge - 3/4" is a good all rounder
Spindle Gouge - 3/8" (or possibly 1/4" for smaller lathes)
Parting Tool - 1/8" is good because it will waste less wood than larger ones.
Skew Chisel - You can get by without this, however mastering the skew is the spindle turners rite of passage - 3/4" oval section works for me.

Bowl Work

Bowl Gouge - 3/8" is a good all rounder, (note bowl gouges are designated by the width of the flute whereas spindle gouges by the section of the steel - hence a 3/8" bowl gouge is considerably more heavyweight than a 3/8" spindle gouge).
Scraper - 1/2" or 3/4" round nosed, I would hedge toward the smaller as it may also be used to hollow out end grain in goblets / boxes, (technically spindle turning), and the size of tool will dictate how small a diameter the recess can be.
Parting Tool - can be used to form spigots / recesses for workholding in a chuck and also for adding detail to bowl work

Many turning tool manufacturers offer sets containing these tools at substantially reduced prices over buying the individual items - to me, buying a set is a 'no brainer'.

Regards Mick

 

[chipmunk]

Well you pay your money and makes your own choice but here's what the Toolpost thinks about tool sets and although you could take a cynical view I think I'd have to agree with it....

http://www.toolpost.co.uk/pages/Turning_Tools/turning_tools.html

"Technical Notes:- You will not find many 'sets' of tools in this catalogue. The only turner who can get real value from a set of tools is the guy who turns to a recipe that's designed to fit the tools in the set. And that would be a criminal waste of the joy and freedom that woodturning offers. Buy your tools because you know why and how you'll use every single one. If buying a set saves you a little money on a 'cost per tool' basis, you can almost guarantee that it will be a bad buy on a 'cost per useful tool' basis. Buy what you need, as and when you need it."

Specifically, for example the tiny parting tool and the 1/4" bowl gouge in the basic Henry Taylor set are not ideal IMHO and the propensity to include oval skews, rather than rolled edge skews, by HT & Sorby is less than ideal too IMHO - I think they're harder to sharpen and less rigid.

...but that's just my two-penn'th

Jon

 

[xraymtb]

I have more or less the set of tools recommended above but bought used via eBay and this site. Cost me about £10 a tool on average.

Until I had all of them I was coming across things I couldn't do properly so would definitely recommend those six or so tools. As a set if new but used individually is likely cheaper.

 

[andersonec]

I bought a set of Sorby tools on recommendation when starting some months ago and after having some practise and then deciding what I want to make I really should have delayed and bought individual tools, there are basics which I would have needed to start, Roughing gouge, Spindle gouge, Bowl gouge, Parting tool, would have been enough for a couple of months then as my knowledge expanded then so did the use of the tools and which I would then purchase next.

I got a chuck from Rutlands £70 with ten year warranty http://www.rutlands.co.uk/workshop-&-po ... -chuck-kit

Andy

 

[Spindle]

I bought a set of Sorby tools on recommendation when starting some months ago and after having some practise and then deciding what I want to make I really should have delayed and bought individual tools, there are basics which I would have needed to start, Roughing gouge, Spindle gouge, Bowl gouge, Parting tool, would have been enough for a couple of months then as my knowledge expanded then so did the use of the tools and which I would then purchase next.

Hi

If you total the cost to buy the four tools you specified individually they would cost £129:32 - the cost of the six tool starter set which includes the four tool you specified is £120:95.

If you are comparing like with like I don't see how buying individually would represent better value than the starter set.

Regards Mick

 

[chipmunk]

The trouble IMHO is that these sets are made to a price and do not include very useful variants of some of the tools (roughing gouge and spindle gouge perhaps excepted).

The parting tool in the Sorby (and Henry Taylor) set is pretty naff IMHO and it would be more useful if a 4-5mm diamond pattern tool were included but obviously that would increase the cost significantly. Henry Taylor sometimes include a 1/4" bowl gouge which isn't that useful for a beginner IMHO.

If you look at the Crown set of 6 cryo tools it looks pretty good on the surface but there the 3/8" bowl gouge has a short blade and handle (to fit the box?) and the skew is a square cross section, rather than rolled edge, so it'll nick the toolrest without fettling.

That's what I have against them
Jon

 

[Andrewbullie]

Guys,

Thanks for all of the feedback, it is interesting to see the differences of opinion and certainly gives me something to consider. As I am brand new to turning I think I will probably opt for the record chuck and a set of tools to start with. I appreciate what the drawback can be with this route, but I can always add to my collection at a relatively cheap price as and when needed if I go down the 2nd hand EBay line..

As for the lathe itself, it never even passed through my mind about the spindle size being 3/4" x 16TPI. If I had known this prior then maybe I would have thought differently and put my money in to a different machine. But, this lathe has a RRP of over £700 although most places who still stock it charge in the region of £550. I have managed to pick a new ex-shop display model up for £300, so I may have got a decent deal or I may not have but not much I can do about it now. Certainly in the short term I hope that it will be sufficient for me to practice on. Out of interest, what is the negative factor of a smaller spindle size? I am guessing vibration on heavy bowl turning?...

Anyway, I will hopefully get chance to have a go at the weekend and see how things go from there.

Many thanks to everyone

Andy

 

[graduate_owner]

Hi Andrewbullie, and welcome to the world of woodturning.
Regarding using softwood scraps, yes definitely. Try making some file handles or turning-tool handles. Or just practice - keep turning making coves and beads, and getting a true cylinder, before throwing the wood away (because there's barely any wood left) and starting on another piece. Be prepared for grain tear out, but if you can master a skew chisel then you can overcome that particular issue. Another thing I would suggest is to try sanding (with dust protection) so as to find out how good the turning needs to be before sanding. People sometimes tend to try to cover up poor turning by sanding, and that just doesn't work. I think it's worth knowing what you can 'get away with' and what is simply not good enough. Of course you aim for quality work that needs minimum sanding, especially in spindle turning, but sometimes things just don't go right.
I think the thing is to build up skills before going on to more expensive blanks.

Be aware that some tool suppliers are not much more than 'box shifters' and not necessarily well qualified for giving advice. I think advice from experienced turners (as opposed to relative incompetents like me) on this forum is far more reliable.

I went along to a woodwork exhibition a short while ago, and found out there's a turning club about 20 miles away, which meets weekly. I'm hoping (nay intending!!) to go along and hopefully join in the very near future. The members of the club I spoke to at the exhibition seemed very knowledgable and competent, so I'm really looking forward to going along. Is there anything near you? People there could perhaps help with sharpening if you were to buy second hand tools. Just a thought.

K

 

[andersonec]

I bought a set of Sorby tools on recommendation when starting some months ago and after having some practise and then deciding what I want to make I really should have delayed and bought individual tools, there are basics which I would have needed to start, Roughing gouge, Spindle gouge, Bowl gouge, Parting tool, would have been enough for a couple of months then as my knowledge expanded then so did the use of the tools and which I would then purchase next.

Hi

If you total the cost to buy the four tools you specified individually they would cost £129:32 - the cost of the six tool starter set which includes the four tool you specified is £120:95.

If you are comparing like with like I don't see how buying individually would represent better value than the starter set.

Regards Mick

Axminster Roughing gouge £14.45
Axminster spindle gouge £13.20
Axminster Bowl gouge £15.16
Crown thin parting tool £18.65

Total £61.46

And they are brand new, I have since bought HSS tools on ebay for less than £12

Andy

 

[Robbo3]

IMHO 1MT and 3/4 x 16TPI is only used on low-end lathes (light blue touch paper and run :wink: )

Can't let that comment go, even though it was made in jest, without putting the record straight for future reference.

3/4"x16 (TPI) & 1MT tend to be found on smaller lathes & those at the lower priced end of the market, however there is absolutely nothing wrong with them. They will allow the turning of wood at the maximum capacity of those lathes (& probably greater) without detriment to either the bearings or the morse taper.

 

[Andrewbullie]

Thanks Robbo, I'm sure it will be fine anyway especially for somebody who is as brand new to it as I am. Just looking forward to trying it out. I was supposed to get it Wednesday, but it got delayed so now I am picking it up tomorrow afternoon. I've already staked my claim on Sunday as a play day and given up Friday night and all day Saturday to entertain the baby in return for my lathe bonding session!! The only thing that could go wrong now is that Machine Mart are out of stock of the chuck and tool sets!

One quick question... Would I be better buying a 3/4 x 16tpi chuck to fit the machine or buy the 1" x 8tpi with an adaptor so that I can take it to another lathe at a later date? Not sure if using the adaptor would have a detrimental effect on function?.

Cheers

Andy