german planes

[woodbrains]

But the scrub plane shaving is fatter - more wood removed for the same effort (AOTBE).

Hello,

That is clearly IMPOSSIBLE isn't it, Jacob. More effect for the same effort! Builders could use mini diggers instead of full sizes JCB's and remove more earth! Small hammer could knock in bigger nails than framing hammers. Wow, we've all been doing everything wrong! (hammer)

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

But the scrub plane shaving is fatter - more wood removed for the same effort (AOTBE).

Hello,

That is clearly IMPOSSIBLE isn't it, Jacob. More effect for the same effort!

Mike.

Clearly possible if you actually try to use a scrub plane which you obviously haven't.
Think of slicing a cake - same amount of cutting effort to take out a thin slice as to cut out a fat one, even to cut it in half. A MIRACLE!
Otherwise what we be the point of using a scrub plane?

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Cutting cake; the amount of material removed is the same, for the same effort, irrespective of the size of the slice. (The material removed is in the knife cut only, the slice of cake is incidental) This is entirely NOT the same as removing different amounts of material for the same effort as you fallaciously believe happens during planing. This would have to breach the laws of conservation of energy, I'm afraid and is not possible. Scrubs work by releasing the shaving at the edges which is why they work, nothing more.



Mike.

 

[Jacob]

Yes think "cake". Same cut thicker slices. Yep thats it.
This is probably the silliest discussion I've had with BB and WB - and there have been some very silly ones!

 

[Trafalgar]

Hello,

Cutting cake; the amount of material removed is the same, for the same effort, irrespective of the size of the slice. (The material removed is in the knife cut only, the slice of cake is incidental) This is entirely NOT the same as removing different amounts of material for the same effort as you fallaciously believe happens during planing. This would have to breach the laws of conservation of energy, I'm afraid and is not possible. Scrubs work by releasing the shaving at the edges which is why they work, nothing more.



Mike.

All planes work by releasing the shavings at the edges. One never uses a perfectly straight cutter on a workpiece wider than the cutter. Straight cutters are reserved for working edges so the cutters' edges are never in wood, they span it on both sides. Planing wood wider than a perfectly straight cutter is a miserable experience, try it some time. Add curve to the cutter and a depth setting consistent with the amount of curve and the going is much easier. More curve, deeper setting is possible. A profoundly curved cutter with a light depth setting is the definition of easy planing.

 

[Jacob]

Hello,

Cutting cake; the amount of material removed is the same, for the same effort, irrespective of the size of the slice. (The material removed is in the knife cut only, the slice of cake is incidental) This is entirely NOT the same as removing different amounts of material for the same effort as you fallaciously believe happens during planing. This would have to breach the laws of conservation of energy, I'm afraid and is not possible. Scrubs work by releasing the shaving at the edges which is why they work, nothing more.



Mike.

Hello

Do you have an opinion on the laws of conservation of cake? Cake knives work by releasing the cake at the edges apparently, nothing more. So I'm told anyway. Something new every day! :lol:

 

[JohnPW]

Can someone rename this thread as most of it not actually about German planes...or split off the relevant posts to a new thread.

:mrgreen:

 

[Jacob]

Hello,

Cutting cake; the amount of material removed is the same, for the same effort, irrespective of the size of the slice. (The material removed is in the knife cut only, the slice of cake is incidental) T.....

Do you mean the crumbs? Possibly a blunt knife? Sharpen it?
The slice of cake may be incidental to you but it could be everything to me (it depends on the cake). Are you on a diet?

 

[Billy Flitch]

JhonPW Iàm sorry you feel like that about this thread but it is definitely about German hand planes in particular the scrub plane. The problem is standing on the side lines watching all this it is quit obvious that some people have never used a German scrub plane but that dose not stop them making comments about it.

 

[MIGNAL]

No, no, no. It was originally concerned with German, horn handled planes. No mention of scrubs. It morphed into scrubs and obviously some people want their cake and eat it. I'm not the slightest bit bothered, providing I get the biggest slice.

 

[Billy Flitch]

Well the German horn handled scrub plane is very much German and in no way related to any British plane or any thing that Stanley made in America.So on that definition I think it belongs very much in this thread.

 

[JohnPW]

Well obviously a German horn handled scrub plane is German :roll: but most of the posts are about the cutting action of a scrub plane vs a no 5 plane with the blade set wonky.

Is a scrub plane specifically German? And I would say horn handled planes are continental rather than German.

 

[bugbear]

All planes work by releasing the shavings at the edges. One never uses a perfectly straight cutter on a workpiece wider than the cutter. Straight cutters are reserved for working edges so the cutters' edges are never in wood, they span it on both sides. Planing wood wider than a perfectly straight cutter is a miserable experience, try it some time. Add curve to the cutter and a depth setting consistent with the amount of curve and the going is much easier. More curve, deeper setting is possible. A profoundly curved cutter with a light depth setting is the definition of easy planing.

As ever, Charles is quite accurate; not the most cheerful of souls, but accurate.

I notice that Jacob has totally dropped the silly semi circle claim in favour of generalities diversions, and jokes. The Butler Swerve rides again. Good night all.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

...
I notice that Jacob has totally dropped the silly semi circle claim ..

No I haven't!

I came on to this thread because I've got 3 "german" planes and have used them.
But I got sidetracked by Beavis and Butthead who obviously have no experience of them and probably don't even know what day it is :roll:
Funny though. Well I thought so anyway. Sorry if it was a bit annoying.
Help yourself to a slice of cake.

 

[Trafalgar]

Well obviously a German horn handled scrub plane is German :roll: but most of the posts are about the cutting action of a scrub plane vs a no 5 plane with the blade set wonky.

Is a scrub plane specifically German? And I would say horn handled planes are continental rather than German.

Probably not if you go back far enough in history. However, Ulmia and ECE have been supplying these for so long that the moniker "German" does apply and is understood by all. Stanley of course had its cast iron version which is not nearly as pleasant to use as a wooden one. The Lie Nielsen copy is abominable since it only comes with a cutter in insipid A2 tool steel (at least that used to be the case).

 

[Noel]

Can the two handbag swingers give it it a rest. That's Bugbear and and Jacob. One is worse than the other, don't make me make a choice.

 

[dm65]

Can I propose a new forum section - perhaps called irrelevant but entertaining arguments ??

I also have one of these horned planes, given by the op, but no blade yet, so whilst nice to look at, it's currently an ornament

 

[bugbear]

...
I notice that Jacob has totally dropped the silly semi circle claim ..

No I haven't!

OK. let's try to resolve it, bring it to a close, cutting out the verbiage, cake, distractions and side issues:

We have (all from Jacob):

A) The effort required for a cut depends purely on the length of the cut.

We also have

B) The shape of cut that removes most material for a given effort is a semi-circle.

This follows nicely from (A) and was first proved by Archimedes. Very basic,
well established maths.

But we also have

C) Factors other than the length of the cut effect the effort required.

A and C are directly contradictory, and cannot both be true. So;
which is true?

Personally, I believe C to be true, since observation shows that depth of cut certainly affects
the efffort required.

Over to Jacob: A or C? (*)

BugBear

(*) will I have to do a Paxman and ask 12 times...

 

[MIGNAL]

Can I propose a new forum section - perhaps called irrelevant but entertaining arguments ??

I also have one of these horned planes, given by the op, but no blade yet, so whilst nice to look at, it's currently an ornament

You should be able to get a suitable replacement from gandmtoolsales, Ebay. That's what I did to replace my original soft ECE blade. Most of the continental blades are 48 mm's, I bought an old Sheffield 1 7/8 th's blade. I think it even came with a chipbreaker.

 

[dm65]

Thanks Mignal, it is on my todo list (page 46 I think )