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Follow up on Pro-Edge question. Fingernail on Tormek

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OldWood

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The question on fingernail grinding a bowl gouge on a Pro-Edge interested me as I have a similar problem using a Tormek.

I made an adaptor to allow me to use the Tormek arm and jigs on a grinder white wheel to get the main grind, but with so many combination of settings on the Tormek jigs, I am struggling to get the long swept back shape that someone like Nick Arnull uses, and rather like the questioner on the Pro-Edge thread, I have wings which are too high.

Can someone give some assistance please.

Rob
 

CHJ

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One factor that that is often not taken into consideration is the shape of the flute, not all manufacturers gouges have the same flute profile and this does affect the ease or even the ability to achieve the same profile.

Best suggestion I can make is to grind a piece of scrap bar (old drill shank) by hand to something as near as possible to the profile you envisage and then keep adjusting your jig angles and distance from wheel to match.

The Tormek Instruction Book page 20 gives you the details of set-up required for the ellsworth grind.
 

OldWood

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CHJ":1m4vxi26 said:
One factor that that is often not taken into consideration is the shape of the flute, not all manufacturers gouges have the same flute profile and this does affect the ease or even the ability to achieve the same profile.

Best suggestion I can make is to grind a piece of scrap bar (old drill shank) by hand to something as near as possible to the profile you envisage and then keep adjusting your jig angles and distance from wheel to match.

The Tormek Instruction Book page 20 gives you the details of set-up required for the ellsworth grind.
I hadn't thought of your first point, Chas - may need to think about that ! I'd forgotten there was something in the handbook (where is my handbook?) on long grinds; thanks for that too. And I'll see about your trial idea.

Thanks for replying

Rob
 

Alex Humbolt

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I have experienced the same problem after I purchased the SVD 185 jig for my new T3 Tormek. With JS 6 and P 75 mm, the left wing of the gouge gets out of the stone, with the bar set in the horizontal position.

I have resolved the problem by reversing the sliding part of the jig, which provides more leeway for the 180° swing to the left on the T3 Tormek. The settings must be adjusted, but it works just fine. Make sure you tighten the securing knob facing the handle of the gouge, to avoid contact with the bar in any grinding position during the - 180° / + 180° sweep.

In my opinion, Tormek's design department has overlooked this issue. The sliding part of the jig is not symetrical and cannot achieve the Elsworth grind with a bevel angle above 65%. Would be possible with the bar in the vertical position, but the high bevel angle make the gouge dig a groove in the stone, at best.

Regards from France
 

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OldWood

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Chas - thanks for your PM. As is the way with these things, the email reader pinged with your message just as I remembered that I had downloaded the whole manual off the Tormek site !!

This photo is taken from Nick Arnull's DVD 'Yang' (strong recommendation for his DVD set 'Ying and Yang' - 5 hours instruction for £20 !) and shows his bowl gouge grind. All the cutting is done on the long flute edges and in the picture shown the bevel angle allows the creation of the dovetail. The long flute edges are used as a planing type action when going both left and right on the outside of a shape. It's interesting that his final external shaping is done with a spindle gouge cut with much the same shape of bevel and flute shape.

So what we have is gouges with very long swept back wings but very steep bevels.

Bowl_gouge01.jpg
 

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CHJ

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OldWood":1vgmrnna said:
.........So what we have is gouges with very long swept back wings but very steep bevels.

Yes and very much dependant on users skill at applying/using in my opinion, if you get the presentation of the side flute wrong there is a very long top edge awaiting to catch and twist the tool, not the easiest profile for a new turner to master.
 

Aled Dafis

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Alex Humbolt":pgjqyfp7 said:
I have experienced the same problem after I purchased the SVD 185 jig for my new T3 Tormek. With JS 6 and P 75 mm, the left wing of the gouge gets out of the stone, with the bar set in the horizontal position.

I have resolved the problem by reversing the sliding part of the jig, which provides more leeway for the 180° swing to the left on the T3 Tormek. The settings must be adjusted, but it works just fine. Make sure you tighten the securing knob facing the handle of the gouge, to avoid contact with the bar in any grinding position during the - 180° / + 180° sweep.

In my opinion, Tormek's design department has overlooked this issue. The sliding part of the jig is not symetrical and cannot achieve the Elsworth grind with a bevel angle above 65%. Would be possible with the bar in the vertical position, but the high bevel angle make the gouge dig a groove in the stone, at best.

Regards from France
I came up against this exact problem a while ago, the link below shows how I engineered a solution. It's interesting to note that even Tormek's inventor admitted this design flaw while I was working on this.

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/tormek-svd-185-help-now-sorted-t36400-15.html

The reason I didn't go with your solution was that I wanted to use the Turning Tool Setter for quick and easy setting every time.

Cheers
Aled
 

OldWood

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Thanks Aled for joining in and giving the link to the previous discussion on this. I have the bigger Tormek so haven't really had all the problems you've had but I'm beginning to push the boundaries and will have to have a look at all the options you have employed.

I made a base for the universal bar so that I can use the Tormek jigs on the dry grinder so that I can get a faster cut when re-shaping, but that suffers from the same problem - mind you that is a 20mm white wheel so it's hardly surpising. I'm going to replace that with a 40mm blue one.

Thanks
Rob
 

jumps

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OldWood":3c6f5a1t said:
This photo is taken from Nick Arnull's DVD 'Yang' (strong recommendation for his DVD set 'Ying and Yang' - 5 hours instruction for £20 !) and shows his bowl gouge grind. All the cutting is done on the long flute edges and in the picture shown the bevel angle allows the creation of the dovetail. The long flute edges are used as a planing type action when going both left and right on the outside of a shape. It's interesting that his final external shaping is done with a spindle gouge cut with much the same shape of bevel and flute shape.

So what we have is gouges with very long swept back wings but very steep bevels.
Does he really have similar bevel angles on the spindle and bowl gouges? Whilst I may go as low as 35 on a detail spindle gouge (45 more general) my bowl gouge is up at 65.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a supply of bowl and spindle flutes, all diameters and grinds - I can see how they could all be useful from time to time, but reality is a different thing...

and I absolutely agree with Chas's observation about wing cuts!
 

boysie39

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First off I would like to welcome Alex Humbolt to the forum ,the French connection is growing quite well. =D> =D>

My views on the gouge grinding debate has always been to creep before you try to walk. It all looks so easy from watching a Pro Demo or a DVD of somebody who has been turning for years useing Fingernail oe Sweptback grinds.
It's so easy to think Jeez look at the lovely finishing cut he get's with that grind.If you asked him and he answered truthfully he would probley say that he was getting the same finishing cuts for many years with the normal grinds.
But over the years before the arrival of the ready made grinding Jig he had been shaprening free hand and began to change the grinds to suit what is his style of tool presentation.
As a hobby turner who only spends a few hours a day turning or even less , I dont think its essentiel to have these long grinds, although I will admit to loseing quite a few inches of steel trying to achieve these grinds,but it is never lost as it can be used to fill in cracks in the pieces you turn. As has already been said the flute on the gouge has a very big part to play in the results of your grind.
So I would think carefully before going for the looonng grind. Remember you could also use an axe if you can sharpen it well enough. Or the chainsaw. What ever you use Be Careful. My 2 euros worth.
 
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