Flattening a Hard Silicon Carbide Honing Stone

[Jacob]

......
Finally, Jacob despite repeating ad nauseum about unnecessary flattening, cannot find a single person or piece of literature to back the claim.....

Not true. According to Steve Voigt Holtzapffel agrees with me; vol.3 (1850), p.1142, t "even distribution of wear" is important. Which is all I'm saying. You just need to evenly distribute wear, to a greater or lesser extent according to what you do. If you need to flatten you have been doing it wrong.

Hello,

No one is denying that evenly distributing wear is a good thing. Guess what, we all do it! But trying to keep the stone as flat as possible in use INFORMS that the stone should be flat, by inference. So what if, in several years of use, besides wide plane irons, we have sharpened firmer gouges, 1/4 in chisels and 3/16 plough plane blades etc. etc. are we really going to have distributed the wear across the entire stone, have we really not been doing it right? Of course not. So we must conclude that (at least some) stones need to be flat and sometimes they need to be flattened, or replaced with flat ones.

Mike.

The main point about using the whole surface is to get a nice even surface, not necessarily flat. My oldest stone (from new) dips in the middle about 10mm along the length, is fairly straight across the width, but most importantly has a regular sort of curve so you can use the whole length. So it's fine for sharpening. I've had other stones with a groove in the middle - somebody doing gouges or something, but again this is not necessarily a problem but you might have to work diagonally across and just hit the tops.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

No one is denying that evenly distributing wear is a good thing. Guess what, we all do it! But trying to keep the stone as flat as possible in use INFORMS that the stone should be flat, by inference. So what if, in several years of use, besides wide plane irons, we have sharpened firmer gouges, 1/4 in chisels and 3/16 plough plane blades etc. etc. are we really going to have distributed the wear across the entire stone, have we really not been doing it right? Of course not. So we must conclude that (at least some) stones need to be flat and sometimes they need to be flattened, or replaced with flat ones.

Mike.

The main point about using the whole surface is to get a nice even surface, not necessarily flat. My oldest stone (from new) dips in the middle about 10mm along the length, is fairly straight across the width, but most importantly has a regular sort of curve so you can use the whole length. So it's fine for sharpening. I've had other stones with a groove in the middle - somebody doing gouges or something, but again this is not necessarily a problem but you might have to work diagonally across and just hit the tops.

Hello,

So you are being duplicitous here. Are you quoting holtzhapffel just to win and argument and don't actually believe the flatness of a stone should be maintained in use; evidenced by your dished and grooved stones? Or are you saying they should be kept flat in use but you fail at evenly distributing wear, though you keep telling everyone else they are doing it wrong. And if the stones are supposed to be maintained flat in use, are manufactured flat in fact, which is harder to do than not, what is the purpose for the flatness if not to flatten tool faces, as demonstrated by many including Paul Sellers.

If you are saying they (stones) do not need to be made flat, kept flat, or returned to flat, then I say again, you are the only one here, who says so, and without any evidence to back up the claim. Even the above contributors whom you seem to be siding with are still saying flatness is necessary for some operations. Using a designated flat side, using the stones edges, whatever, there needs to be a flat somewhere. Well let's just say combo stones do not have backs or sides to be used and perhaps they need to be flattened. Perhaps we keep another specially for backing off, or initial tool prep. Whatever, the need for flat is necessary, found in texts everywhere and agreed upon by everyone here.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

...

So you are being duplicitous here.

No you are confused. I realise you see everything in black and white terms - "correct" or "not correct" especially if you read it in a book or a mag.

Are you quoting holtzhapffel just to win and argument and don't actually believe the flatness of a stone should be maintained in use; evidenced by your dished and grooved stones? Or are you saying they should be kept flat in use but you fail at evenly distributing wear, t...

OK I'll be absolutely spot on definitive:
they need to be flattish.
Spherical not good (but you'd be able to sharpen if you had to) so you might actually want to flatten it a bit. But beyond a certain point it would not ever need doing a second time, as long as you aim at flattening as you go - to keep the stone flattish and usable.
I don't need to win an argument - I've already won it every time I sharpen something - I'm just passing on a bit of useful advice which could help someone struggling, or a beginner. i.e. avoid crazy sharpening techniques- keep it simple! A new chisel does not need flattening - it should take about 30 seconds to first sharpen it...... and so on.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

OK so now I have pinned you down to a definitive stance. The stones need to be flattish and maintained that way by distributing wear. Well no one said anything about engineering flat did we; when we say flat we mean flat relative to what we need to do. So when a stone goes out of flattish or we inherit an old one with a dished surface ( the mirror to spherical which you say would be useless) what do we do. It is not crazy restoring the flattishness, it is the way they are supposed to be, or else if cheap enough replaced. They are made that way for a purpose, the textbooks say it is something to be maintained, during sensible use but eventually deliberately restored to such. There is miriad text telling us so, from them days when things were simple and all. But nowhere is there any text telling us it is OK to let them dish and just not bother doing anything about it. There are no modern crazy sharpening methods, it is just something you say, but cannot really pinpoint anything specifically crazy, that you do not yourself do.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

Hello,

OK so now I have pinned you down to a definitive stance. The stones need to be flattish and maintained that way by distributing wear. Well no one said anything about engineering flat did we; when we say flat we mean flat relative to what we need to do. So when a stone goes out of flattish or we inherit an old one with a dished surface ( the mirror to spherical which you say would be useless) what do we do. It is not crazy restoring the flattishness, it is the way they are supposed to be, or else if cheap enough replaced. They are made that way for a purpose, the textbooks say it is something to be maintained, during sensible use but eventually deliberately restored to such. There is miriad text telling us so, from them days when things were simple and all. But nowhere is there any text telling us it is OK to let them dish and just not bother doing anything about it. There are no modern crazy sharpening methods, it is just something you say, but cannot really pinpoint anything specifically crazy, that you do not yourself do.

Mike.

Yes you are getting there. Basically you don't need to flatten stones unless they are doughnut shaped or whatever. There isn't that much in the texts - but you shouldn't believe everything you read in books anyway.

 

[Trafalgar]

It's absolutely ok to let a side get dished if you wish. Makes certain honing operations easier. Some people even look for dished stones but ultimately it's up to you.

Remember:

THEY. HAVE. TWO. SIDES.

 

[D_W]

re: the above discussion, I don't usually flatten a stone after I get it and do an initial flattening. I'd say it's a safe thing to say that I don't do it at all, I can't remember doing it to any stone in the last several years.

BUT, anyone who is buying tools or preparing things like cap irons and iron backs will need a flat surface.

If someone buys an old tool where you can't access the wire edge without lifting the tool up off of the stone a substantial amount, then a flat surface is also needed - it's hard to do those sorts of things without them. I'd bet that a lot of the stones allowed to get very out of flat got that way because their owners were using their tools heavily with a dedicated set of tools and the acquiring and rehabilitating was nearly zero. Sometimes on the stones like the washitas, it's nice for them to be a bit higher around the edges than the middle (talking small fractions here, not a quarter of an inch), because it makes for a situation where removing the wire edge from the back of the iron, or at least pushing it back in the other direction, is done easily without having a large back suspended on oil on a perfectly flat surface.

One of the most convincing things I've seen in out of flat stones in terms of dedicated use was a 10x2 inch yellow/green escher that had about 1/4" of dip along its length. Some barber or shop of barbers were using the stone and using it hard. It had a near perfect surface (so it wasn't being used for tools or knives), but the surface had been worn very hollow over time. I doubt the barbers' customers noticed, and the razors wouldn't have, either, I'm sure the barbers using the stone didn't have a dozen separate stones to use, and the hollowed stone would've been ideal for a new razor.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

OK so now I have pinned you down to a definitive stance. The stones need to be flattish and maintained that way by distributing wear. Well no one said anything about engineering flat did we; when we say flat we mean flat relative to what we need to do. So when a stone goes out of flattish or we inherit an old one with a dished surface ( the mirror to spherical which you say would be useless) what do we do. It is not crazy restoring the flattishness, it is the way they are supposed to be, or else if cheap enough replaced. They are made that way for a purpose, the textbooks say it is something to be maintained, during sensible use but eventually deliberately restored to such. There is miriad text telling us so, from them days when things were simple and all. But nowhere is there any text telling us it is OK to let them dish and just not bother doing anything about it. There are no modern crazy sharpening methods, it is just something you say, but cannot really pinpoint anything specifically crazy, that you do not yourself do.

Mike.

Yes you are getting there. Basically you don't need to flatten stones unless they are doughnut shaped or whatever. There isn't that much in the texts - but you shouldn't believe everything you read in books anyway.

Hello,

And that is all anyone ever does, there is no craziness in it. The OP was not doubt making his stone 'less doughnut shaped or whatever'. It may have been ill advised to try and un-doughnut shape that particular stone, but that is besides the point, Only you talk about modern crazy sharpening, but no one has ever done anything that is not needed, some do quite a bit less, but that is their look out. We do have choice of different stuff than had been available in the 1980's, but no one has it all, they just do the same old same old with a new media.

Mike.

 

[Trafalgar]

One can't help but wonder what would have happened if Stewie had simply turned the stone over and used the flat side, which I'm almost sure the stone had.

Only Stewart knows for sure.

 

[swagman]

you mentioned that you were on the forums to take shots at people and not to offer advice or talk woodwork, as you said, other people are around to do that.

Charles; this forum would be better without your involvement.

David Weaver

02-21-2013, 12:59 AM

Seriously Charles, when someone asks a question on here and people answer them, it's really not at all necessary to try to divert every thread into whether or not you agree with what they're doing. Especially when it seems to be the abundance of the items are those which you have no experience with.

Most of the forum is too polite in dealing with that kind of behavior, obviously, because it continues and instead of saying anything, people cease to post questions. It would be fantastic if any discussion could exist without you cutting it off, diverting it or trolling the posters and insulting people.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/archive/ind ... 99208.html

 

[Racers]

Chaps, you need to add a couple of people to your ignore list, it makes the forum a much better place.

Pete

 

[bugbear]

Chaps, you need to add a couple of people to your ignore list, it makes the forum a much better place.

Pete

Three people, prominent in this thread, comprise my entire list.

BugBear

 

[essexalan]

Yeah stay around Stewie, noli illegitimi carborundum. Which I think means "Use 60 grit carborundum powder for grinding you will find it better" ;0)

 

[Trafalgar]

Well guys, regardless of my past, present, or future if I've convinced even one person that stones are actually a three dimensional solid (THEY ARE!) and if one side is not to your liking it's not an emergency, you can usually just turn it over AND GET YEARS of service from the other side (working to middle you know, takes a long time to get there), then I'm happy.

Of course there's the matter of a $20 bill or DW'S EBay lots that average out to about a $1 a stone -- an equally compelling alternative to ALL THE WORK.

Cheers!

 

[D_W]

Well guys, regardless of my past, present, or future if I've convinced even one person that stones are actually a three dimensional solid (THEY ARE!) and if one side is not to your liking it's not an emergency, you can usually just turn it over AND GET YEARS of service from the other side (working to middle you know, takes a long time to get there), then I'm happy.

Of course there's the matter of a $20 bill or DW'S EBay lots that average out to about a $1 a stone -- an equally compelling alternative to ALL THE WORK.

Cheers!

I hope people don't take your past comments too seriously (or mine to you). It's like someone admitting they took steroids right after they retire from athletics (when everyone already knew it). I was just surprised by the candid admission on knots (maybe that's why I remembered it), but it doesn't actually change reality, you know? I tracked it down, it turned into a 304 post saga..worth a brief chuckle looking at it.

The quote SMC comment above in reference to people being too polite is the number of folks complaining when you're on a bender, but they rarely complain to *you* until they pop.

I agree on the stones, though, but it appears that flattening is becoming part of everything, and it does make a bit of sense for people like stewie making new tools. but the guy I linked from youtube...flattening a new stone to sharpen knives, really no clue about that.

 

[Trafalgar]

I've been down more woodworking dead ends than I care to count and wish there had been somebody around to point out what an effin' silly person I was.

Less is more. Of this, I'm sure. And I STILL have too much junk around. It's shameful really.

 

[essexalan]

Some new stones are not flat and do not cut well after manufacture and do require both flattening and a surface refresh before use. The knife boys are fanatical about having flat stones perhaps it is something to do with the very small bevels and the thinness of the steel involved.

 

[D_W]

Some new stones are not flat and do not cut well after manufacture and do require both flattening and a surface refresh before use. The knife boys are fanatical about having flat stones perhaps it is something to do with the very small bevels and the thinness of the steel involved.

my fascination with sharpening everything by hand carries over to knives and straight razors (and scissors, and pencil sharpeners, and...whatever else you can get on a stone). The knife sharpeners might want a uniform surface, but the flatness thing is strange for knives because the bevel isn't large enough to require it. Different thing if the stone has to do double duty with something that needs to be flattened on the back.

The knife forums are really afflicted with the disease of complication, but then again, so are the razor forums, but razors do require a little bit of extra care above and beyond knives - stones can be hollow in their length, but no razor stones will be hollow in their width whereas such a thing doesn't matter for knives. I think the fascination with knives begins with the desire to use softer stones to sharpen them as far as natural stones go, and those stones go hollow quickly. Still would be more economical to use the entire stone and work off the high spots, but that's not popular.

The normal response of "what did professionals do 100 years ago" doesn't allay anyones' fascination on razor or knife forums either, though. And a lot of the folks sharpening knives and razors have never sharpened anything before, so you can't reason with them - they have no context and don't use their knives for anything other than to practice sharpening, so the idea of a cycle of use and sharpening doesn't register. They will try to convince you that nobody could've ever done anything with carbon steel, though!

 

[Trafalgar]

Some new stones are not flat and do not cut well after manufacture and do require both flattening and a surface refresh before use. The knife boys are fanatical about having flat stones perhaps it is something to do with the very small bevels and the thinness of the steel involved.

And this makes sense given that a knife is the end product of a knife maker and will arrive in the hands of its new owner with a perfect and pristine edge. Then the owner of that knife will proceed to use it as a tool and it will never be quite the same again unless the owner then becomes a knife maintainer rather than a knife user. One stroke with the knife and the edge isn't quite what it was. Should we stop and hone, or finish the job at hand, or strike some sort of balance with our own end product taking primacy?

 

[D_W]

That's not quite true, unless you're talking about really high end goods (like hand finished knives might actually come with something you'd put on a knife). Most knives now, even "good" ones that cost about $75 a knife will come with a blunt secondary angle that most woodworkers would find easier to better in a couple of minutes. They probably used to come with a good edge, but the last few I've bought were blunt (which probably makes them more durable for a doofus user).

It's possible to maintain a better edge in a couple of minutes every several months (steeling between honing), but it doesn't have anything to do with the flatness of a stone. That's the part I don't get.

i don't buy knives like I buy stones and tools, though, so my sample size of knives is probably 4 in the last decade.