eBay/PayPal - a cautionary tale

[Eric The Viking]

I just came across this story in the Telegraph's consumer financial pages:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/pers ... lp-me.html

Not making any other comment, suffice it to say, be careful when buying or selling large-ticket items on eBay.

E.

 

[Jacob]

I just came across this story in the Telegraph's consumer financial pages:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/pers ... lp-me.html

Not making any other comment, suffice it to say, be careful when buying or selling large-ticket items on eBay.

E.

I think he was a bit green and didn't read the small print so it's his fault to a large extent.
Whether or not Ebay should reimburse him is another question.
The few bad deals I've had have been refunded by Paypal quick as a flash - I've been quite impressed.
So follow the procedure - use Paypal, don't send goods until paid for etc etc

Maybe ebay should limit size of transactions for beginners so they can get their hands in with less risk?

 

[RogerS]

I have a dedicated bank account tied to PayPal. I keep about £1 in it. If I get an email saying that I've been paid then I go straight to my PayPal account to check, transfer the money to this bank account and then as soon as it has arrived transfer it out of that bank account to another separate one. I never trust anyone and I never trust PayPal.

 

[RogerP]

I think he was a bit green and didn't read the small print so it's his fault to a large extent.
Whether or not Ebay should reimburse him is another question.
The few bad deals I've had have been refunded by Paypal quick as a flash - I've been quite impressed.
So follow the procedure - use Paypal, don't send goods until paid for etc etc

Maybe ebay should limit size of transactions for beginners so they can get their hands in with less risk?

Absolutely. This chap just didn't do anything to help himself. At the very least he should gave been sensible enough to check his PayPal balance before sending the goods.

As far as PayPal are concerned I've nothing but praise for them with 1000's of transactions. BUT don't think because you've withdrawn funds they'll not be able to get the money back if the transaction fails for any reason. They will. They'll just charge the debit to your account and if it's not cleared in a reasonable time they chase you through the courts.

Really!

 

[Eric The Viking]

As far as PayPal are concerned I've nothing but praise for them with 1000's of transactions...

and

...BUT don't think because you've withdrawn funds they'll not be able to get the money back if the transaction fails for any reason. They will. They'll just charge the debit to your account and if it's not cleared in a reasonable time they chase you through the courts.

Roger, I wonder if these two statements are slightly inconsistent with each other.

In all these service sector cases, I measure the organisation by what happens when things go wrong. Any fule can design a process that works when everyone does the correct thing. It is far harder to get systems in place to handle the out-of-process stuff -- something that humans used to do extremely well, incidentally.

Below is a little, true, story...

. . .

I recently ordered some shoes for my wife from the USA, purchased via eBay (not an auction).

EBay's "Global Shipping Program", actually run by Pitney Bowes out of Minneapolis airport, managed to swap my parcel with one from a supplier of security video equipment from Vancouver (the one in Canada!), so an expensive video camera turned up instead. I have no idea who got my wife's shoes.

There was enough redundant shipping information still on the package for me to identify the company who sent the camera and get in touch with them. They confirmed a missing consignment -- I have no idea who their customer is though (nor if that customer received the shoes!).

I've asked for, and been waiting for about two months now, for instructions from eBay as to how to return the unit. Nothing has been forthcoming. I have had no communications from Pitney Bowes whatsoever.

Meanwhile, PayPal has promptly refunded my money, including the shipping costs. My correspondence with eBay has included exact information about the parcel senders, contents, etc., giving them enough information to contact the sellers and put matters right properly.

In return, I've had a variety of 'entertaining' automatic messages from both eBay and PayPal, basically containing complete nonsense about what happened.

I know for absolute certainty the mistake was in Pitney Bowes' process, possibly compounded by incorrect addressing on the packages (can probably never get to the bottom of that part now). The way it's presently been left is this:

• I do not have my wife's shoes.
• I assume somewhere there is another customer without a video camera.
• Two sellers are out of pocket. Going by my own previous experience, it is my assumption that eBay were not prepared to take responsibility for their subcontractor's error (and they evidently want you to assume the contract is not with them in any case*). I am guessing, based on the wriggly wording** of their sellers' information for the Global Shipping Program that they have not refunded the items' cost to the sellers.
• One supplier probably now has reputational damage as a consequence (I only knew the real situation by happenstance - shipping docs left on the package that should probably have been removed at Pitney Bowes).
• I have unwanted custody of a video camera that isn't my property. I don't see why I should pay to send it half way back round the world, but eBay are apparently not interested in putting matters right even though they've been told it's here).

I have discovered the possible existence of an arcane contract between myself and Pitney Bowes, because of eBay's "Global Shipping Program". EBay directed P.B. to refund the shipping costs to me directly, although they alone originally took payment, and the language of their email implies a contract existed between me and P.B., which I did not knowingly make.*

EBay's legal position in the whole mess is now completely unclear, even more so because Pitney Bowes have no obvious way for me to communicate with them.

Why explain all this? Because, if eBay are happy to 'bury' an important contractual relationship when things are 'normal', yet take a different approach when things go wrong, they are not to be trusted. At least four parties have been disadvantaged by the above cock-up, and a lot of time wasted.

E.

*I am still unconvinced I had any contract with Pitney Bowes, who at best were acting as shipping agents for the two vendors. There is something on the Global Shipping Program T&C page (which I've finally found), but even there the language is arcane:

• "By purchasing a GSP Item, you will be entering into a binding contract with the Seller for the purchase of the GSP Item, as well as an agreement with Pitney Bowes for the provision of the Services, including parcel processing, international shipping and tracking, and customs clearance. You acknowledge and agree that Pitney Bowes may use third party logistics providers, shipping carriers, customs brokers, freight forwarders, and/or other subcontractors under contract with Pitney Bowes to assist it in performing the Services. More information about the Services may be found here." http://pages.ebay.com/shipping/globalshipping/buyer-tnc.html

What, exactly, do the words "... as well as an agreement with..." mean (emphasis mine), and why were these T&Cs hard to find when making the original purchase, and why doesn't EBay make it clear from the outset? English Law, and most US law derived from it disallows contract terms added post factum without mutual consent, so the whole thing turns on the point at which the contract was made and with whom.

**

• "How sellers are protected
  With the Global Shipping Program, you're protected in the following ways:
  [snip]
  You aren't responsible for item loss or damage that occurs after the item is forwarded by the US shipping center. Once an item has been forwarded by the US shipping center, you won't be responsible for refunding the buyer if an eBay Money Back Guarantee or PayPal Purchase Protection case is filed against you for one of the following reasons:
  A buyer claims an item isn't received or..."

To my mind, "... you aren't responsible for..." is ambiguous: OK, the buyer is not refunded by the seller, but I can't see any indication in the quoted wording that either eBay or Pitney Bowes is prepared to compensate the seller for the lost goods either.

 

[Jacob]

.....I measure the organisation by what happens when things go wrong.................. PayPal has promptly refunded my money, including the shipping costs.....

A mistake has been made but you are not out of pocket. Sounds good to me !

I've had stuff from all over the place (China, Singapore, Korea, Mexico and other places) arriving safely and (surprisingly) promptly. Where there has been a problem (very rare) I've got my money back.
I've also done difficult sales - top of the list being a broken down Landrover on a Greek island, which I sold for my son (he had to abandon his charity trip to Mongolia). No problem. Money via Paypal. Happy purchaser as far as I know.

The "new shopping" is becoming quite a worldwide phenomenon.

 

[Eric The Viking]

A classic reply, Jacob. I think you've entirely missed the point.

I am the BUYER. Although I am not out of pocket, I didn't get the goods and there are still loose ends. The sellers have to swallow the cost of someone else's mistake (or so it looks), AND those responsible are not contactable and effectively unaccountable.

For what it's worth I've been using eBay on and off since the mid 1990s, shortly after web commerce became possible.

I do sell via the internet, but, when I can, I now use a specialist service that offers escrow. I do buy from eBay, fairly often, but I would think very hard before selling anything via it. There is precious little seller support if anything goes wrong. I don't think eBay are interested in them, except as a revenue stream.

 

[Jacob]

A classic reply, Jacob. I think you've entirely missed the point.

I am the BUYER. Although I am not out of pocket, I didn't get the goods and there are still loose ends. The sellers have to swallow the cost of someone else's mistake (or so it looks), AND those responsible are not contactable and effectively unaccountable.

For what it's worth I've been using eBay on and off since the mid 1990s, shortly after web commerce became possible.

I do sell via the internet, but, when I can, I now use a specialist service that offers escrow. I do buy from eBay, fairly often, but I would think very hard before selling anything via it. There is precious little seller support if anything goes wrong. I don't think eBay are interested in them, except as a revenue stream.

No I think you've missed the point Eric. Yes you didn't get the goods, a mistake was made, unfortunate, but you were reimbursed. Good of you to worry about the sellers but it's out of your hands.

If sellers do have a problem it'd be interesting to hear from them. I've been a seller and a buyer and had no probs (which weren't resolved) either way.

I think it's true that ebay/paypal are more protective of buyers than sellers but that's how it should be - the seller knows what he is selling but if he describes it wrongly the buyer doesn't know until he gets it.