Dovetails in softwood

[brianhabby]

Hi all,

I've been practicing my dovetail cutting today and not very happy with the result. I've been using some scraps of spruce/fir/pine, whatever it is the sheds stock and the main issue is getting a clean cut.

First thing is getting a nice sharp marked line with my marking gauge, because I'm going across the grain, I'm getting a very ragged line, thus:

The other issue is getting a sharp enough chisel to make clean cuts, but the line I need to cut to is no use to start with. My marking gauge is a standard cheapo one with a pointy bit of metal that scratches the wood. It works okay going with the grain but as you can see not so good across the grain.

Is there a better type of marking gauge that will give me a clean line in soft wood, as I'm sure it will make life easier. I'm sure I saw a video once where the sharp bit on the guage was more like a small knife.

I know I would probably get better result using a better wood but this stuff is cheap to practice on.

regards

Brian

 

[Steve Maskery]

Brian
You would be better off with a cutting gauge. It's the same, except that instead of a sharpened nail, it has a proper sharpened, bevelled, knife edge. It will give you much better marking results.

In fact, why are you using a gauge at all? You would be much better off using an engineer's square and a marking knife.

Pine may be cheap, but, as you have found, it's not so easy to get a clean cut. Try getting hold of some canary (polar, tulipwood). It's not too expensive, soft and forgiving, but much more co-operative than pine.

S

 

[Bremner]

When I mark out hinges in softwoods I use a Steele rule and a sharp Stanley knife blade it leaves a nice clean line across the grain.

 

[barkwindjammer]

http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-ma ... rod479863/

 

[condeesteso]

Start of a great thread I fear!! - you will get plenty of opinions on this one.
Obviously pine is not easy as the grain steers the tool quite a bit. So any point marker will probably make things tricky. Personally I use either a pencil (a 0.5mm propelling type) or a one-sided marking knife - my personal favourite is this one: http://www.axminster.co.uk/ice-bear-jap ... prod20282/
This Japanese laminated V marker flips left / right and gets into tight gaps in dovetails - so among the 8 or so markers I have this is THE one, for me.
To mark the stock thickness from a side to a back (say), use the chisel. Lay the back flat, lay the chisel on the stock (flat side down) and use the projecting blade to mark the side by running it across the tip of the chisel... there's a vid somewhere, hard to explain in words but super-quick, and bang on accurate.
Basically, on pine, I would use the .5mm pencil and cut to the waste side. If poss, practice splitting the line, or just touching it. You will quickly get joints that fit and don't need fettling or whacking. When it happens the first time, it's all suddenly been worth it. then when you take that approach to woods that are better behaved, it'll be a doddle!

enjoy.

 

[brianhabby]

Thanks for the quick replies as usual, much appreciated.

Steve, I take your point about practicing on other woods but this is just stuff I have knocking about.

I'll have another go tomorrow but mark using a Stanley knife and see how I get on.

My son wants a storage unit for his small paint bottles (he makes models) and I plan to make him something incorporating dovetails because that would be the best joint for the design in my head. I might find some better wood for the project proper though.

regards

Brian

 

[brianhabby]

Just a though about the wood choice, I have some recycled cedar that could be used for the project. How do you think that would behave, must be better than pine, yes?

regards

Brian

 

[Richard Findley]

Hi Brian,

I've never seen the point of scoring this mark into the wood. Even with a sharp cutting tool it leaves a scar on the wood and I personally don't like it! I prefer a sharp pencil, just like for all other marking out. If you feel you need to cut it then go for a sharp marking knife and ruler.

Cheers

Richard

 

[wobblycogs]

I second barkwindjammer's recommendation of a wheel type marking gauge as it leaves a good crisp clean line in softwoods. I find it a little more work in very hard woods than a traditional pointed gauge though so best to have both YMMV.

I also agree with everyone else when saying try learning on something other than pine. I, and I guess just about everyone, tries to learn with pine but it's a pig to work with unless your tools are very sharp and your technique is pretty good. I've been hobby butchering wood for a few years and I'm only just starting to feel I can get a good joint in pine. I actually started by learning to turn and I choose pine as my training wood - huge mistake, nearly made me give up.

IMHO, the only benefit of pine is that you can get an air tight joint more easily than with a harder woods because it's very slightly compressible.

 

[Jacob]

Hi Brian,

I've never seen the point of scoring this mark into the wood.....

The reason for "cutting" (rather than scoring, scratching) the line is as a starter for chiselling the shoulders. Without working to the cut line it's quite difficult to get shoulders visually dead in line. That's why it's always done that way on virtually every old drawer you are likely to meet.
Best done with a trad cutting gauge - same as a pin marking gauge but with a little knife thing held with a wedge, instead of a pin.
Wheel gauges are expensive and pointless IMHO. You can adjust the depth of cut on a trad gauge which makes them much more useful.
If you don't want a visible line you could make the thing a touch over size and plane it back.

Pine is good for practice work as it is a bit challenging but also cheap - you need to be able to waste a lot of wood before you get things right. Though some of the softer softwoods would be near impossible.

 

[Alf]

Hi Brian,

I've never seen the point of scoring this mark into the wood. Even with a sharp cutting tool it leaves a scar on the wood and I personally don't like it! I prefer a sharp pencil, just like for all other marking out. If you feel you need to cut it then go for a sharp marking knife and ruler.

Cheers

Richard

The point is that, for the final cut with the chisel, the chisel edge just naturally drops into the mark made by the gauge - so if your layout is in the right place, the end result will be in the right place too. And it'll be right for every component with a gauge, without the error that can creep in using a rule and knife.

Brian, you just need to put a little work into shaping your gauge point into something that cuts a line, and doesn't just scrape one - such as shown and described by Jeff Gorman here. S'why you end up needing more than one gauge (any excuse ) If you're looking to buy specifically for cross grain marking, I agree with previous posters; look for a cutting gauge or a wheel gauge.

 

[barkwindjammer]

This is the one Jacob mentions

http://www.qwikfast.co.uk/catalogue/irw ... -8484.html

 

[jimi43]

Try doing the dovetails by eye....the first few will be rubbish but once you get it right...they just seem to flow.

I find the most difficult bit is getting rid of the stock you want removing between the tails. I found hogging it out with my tiny Burgess bandsaw works fine if you don't go right to the line...then I slice down with a nice sharp chisel that fits exactly.

I'm no expert at this but it is fun!

Jim

 

[Jacob]

This is the one Jacob mentions

http://www.qwikfast.co.uk/catalogue/irw ... -8484.html

Looks a goodun.
If skint there are cheaper ones made of beech. Or make your own by modifying a pin gauge as Alf suggests. Or ebay - 2 or 3 quid.

 

[brianhabby]

Some really useful tips guys, I'll keep practicing

One thing I've found is that you need to cut from both sides of the piece. I cut the pins first and then transferred the marks to the tail piece so I only had the marks on one side of the wood. When I chiselled it out I had bad tear out on the underside, which finishes up being the outside of the project (if that makes sense).

I think I've got to cut from both sides and just creep up on it. Nothing that I dare show on here yet

I tried marking with a Stanley knife and good square but take the point made above by Alf that errors can creep in this way so I've ordered a gauge from Axi to eliminate that one.

I did try with the cedar but it was worse than the pine

Now I just need to learn to sharpen my chisels

regards

Brian

 

[wobblycogs]

It sounds to me like you are trying to remove all the material using chisels. That's certainly possible but it's much quicker (and will probably give a better result) to just saw close to the line and then pop the waste out then fettle with a chisel*. Using a Japanese saw I find that in pine I can often saw it accurately enough that I don't need to fettle the pins / tails at all.

* not the greatest explanation ever but I didn't want to teach my granny to suck eggs if this is what you are already doing.

 

[drillbit]

Brian

You are right about chiselling in from the other side. If you just make a small v shaped groove with your chisel on the 'far' side, then it should help prevent tear out.

But if you are not already doing so, it would also help to clamp your piece to another bit of scrap timber when chiselling the waste.

In my humble opinion, working with pine is a bit like trying to saw up cooked chicken, so you will probably always get some tear out.

 

[brianhabby]

Yes I have been cutting most of the waste with the saw and finishing off with the chisel.

Clamping the pice I'm working on is a good idea which not only helps to stop tear out but holds the piece securely too. Trouble is the pieces I'm working on are quite small so the clamp can get if the way a bit.

The unit I want to make for my son (out of pine ) will require fairly small sections (something like 2" x ½"). With a couple of dovetails in this piece of wood they are quite small.

Thanks again for the tips - keep em coming.

regards

Brian

 

[Furtree]

... of course, <cough> there are also those little things called dovetail jigs, as used with routers! :wink:

{ author of this reply slips quietly out via a side door, — before people start throwing things at him! }

 

[brianhabby]

... of course, <cough> there are also those little things called dovetail jigs, as used with routers! :wink:

{ author of this reply slips quietly out via a side door, — before people start throwing things at him! }

Yep... got one of those I bought a few years ago - anyone want it?

It's just too complicated to set up for the amount I do. If I was in a production situation I might consider using it. Besides I don't think the one I have is any use for the very thin stock that I'm using.

I've been practicing and might have something to share soon

regards

Brian