Chris Schwarz comments on Quangsheng planes

UKworkshop.co.uk

Help Support UKworkshop.co.uk:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Fromey

Established Member
Joined
22 Sep 2010
Messages
570
Reaction score
1
Location
Frome, Somerset, UK
I believe, but could be wrong, that the company that makes Quangsheng planes, sells them in different countries under different names. In the US, they are sold under the Wood River name. Chris Schwarz has just written a blog article about the changing practices of Wood River planes. Predictably it's sparked a lot of heated discussion.

http://blog.lostartpress.com/2012/12/31 ... -a-change/
 
the comments are quite interesting. It is a real shame that within the UK, there are not more people saying "i will not buy imported plans- it has to be British". Alas, with only Clifton manufacturing on a significant scale, i guess it isn't really an option, although of the American ones, it is only LN that is a major player isn't it?

I dont now what the answer is with far east copies of premium products. On the one hand, i object to it because of the harm it does to the companies developing products and designs. On the other, things like a QS plane creep into my price band, when comparing with used Stanleys/Records. LN/LV generally do not. I am yet to buy QS, but I expect that i will do so at some point.
 
A thought has occurred to me, although I'm no lawyer, let alone a patent attorney. Chris Schwarz claims that LN put their own stamp on their products, such that it is recognisable in the Quangsheng planes. If so, I wonder if LN patented their developments? If they felt they had innovated sufficiently in either process or product but didn't patent it (for what ever reasons), then the issue lies squarely with them and they have to stomach the outcome. If they didn't patent them, as I suspect, because they are insufficiently different from prior knowledge to warrant a patent, then their planes become prior knowledge and so free for anyone, US or elsewhere, to copy completely legally. That may still seem morally insufficient, but the law is the law.
 
LN have not innovated anything as far as I can see. All their products are derived from earlier examples aren't they?
They have gone for higher quality (etc. etc.) but this is hardly an innovation and there's no reason why anyone else shouldn't follow suit.
I suppose they could claim copyright over some design details but there isn't much there to be protected I'da thought.
I can't see what the dilemma is about imported goods - we sell abroad; we must buy abroad, we are a trading nation. If home produced goods aren't up to scratch (or down to price) then this is an incentive for them to improve - as happens in other areas.
NB LN/LV are just as foreign as QS
 
I think you will find that the Chinese do not worry about Patents.
If you saw the TopGear prog. where they showed clones of Minis, BMW X5s etc. which BMW had sued in the Chinese Courts to be told by the Chinese Judges they were nothing like!

Rod
 
Yes, I expect international patents are not only harder and more expensive to file, but much more difficult/expensive to enforce. China is a well known entity in this respect. I have a hair raising story I could tell you about a conversation I had with the Chinese agriculture minister about their cavalier use of genetically modified organisms that would clearly demonstrate this point.

I also agree with you Jacob. The fact that LN can copy Stanley designs without a ruffle, speaks of either the patents having expired or not being defended so that they are now prior knowledge. It's likely to be exactly the same concept that allows the Chinese to make clones of LN planes, or at least for Woodcraft to legally import them into the US. Most of the responses on the blog are typically US isolationist in tenor.
 
Plagiarism is rife in China
It is possible to register product design not only patents
If Tom Lie-Nielsen feels his products have been blatantly copied he could nominate the culprits for 'Aktion Plagarius'
Matt
 
(this turns into a bit of a rant at the end - apologies if I offend: don't read it if you hate politics!)

There's probably nothing patentable in the high-end copies of old designs, although modifications may be patentable. The original point of the patent system was to encourage innovation by giving exclusivity to the inventor for a limited time. Prior to that, things were copied immediately they appeared, and ideas themselves had no value unless they could be kept secret (for physical items to be sold, that was impossible). Patents were supposed to expire, so that everyone could copy the idea and all would benefit. It's also legal to make a copy of something patented for your own research and development purposes, as long as you don't use it in any other way. The electronics industry used to do this a lot, all perfectly legally.

Today, designs too are copyright (a different matter). Aggressively copying current designs is illegal, as long as those design features can be proven to have come from the original maker. So anyone who copied a Clifton plane, by using the same green and the word "Clifton" on it somewhere, would be breaking the law, by "passing off" their plane as a Clifton.

Designs as old as Leonard Bailey's are long out of copyright, and making a copy of, say, what we know as a #5, isn't at all illegal. That probably goes for most of the Stanley pre-war catalogue too, and anyway, those designs came from Preston, Bailey etc. originally. Some were designs Stanley bought; some were just copied.

The Chinese aren't immune from copyright law, either. It may be that you can't sue in China itself, BUT people can, and frequently do, go after the importers of knock-offs. Trading Standards do this in the UK a lot. The Chinese designers know that they can't export their designs if their customers risk court.

Finally there is the issue of design licence. Some manufacturers, including the Chinese, agree to take on the cost of tooling-up to make a complex product, if they are allowed rights to sell the product elsewhere under a different name. You see this a lot with small woodworking machines, where the accessories, and often the entire machine, are sold under different, competing brand names.

A good example is small bandsaws. Actually this one is more commonly "OEM-ing" -- putting a brand name, colour scheme, etc. on for the distributor -- but it's a related practice.

This is complicated further by big importers insisting on detail changes to a design, either for quality reasons or to differentiate their product in other ways. Axminster do this, and it's a good thing in my opinion. Commonly, again, the improvements will only remain unique for a limited time by mutual agreement between importer and manufacturer. After that expires, the maker can put the same improvements onto every version going out the door.

I think the Americans commenting on Chris Schwartz's blog have a typically naive view of this. Firstly they don't understand the market. Those who can afford Veritas or LV, buy them. Many people, myself included, could never afford their prices, but I'm in a much bigger market segment than those who can.

Sure, I appreciate the quality of those products, but that's what makes them expensive. But there are probably a hundred people like me for every one LV or Veritas customer (and it'll be 1000:1 for Bridge City!).

So you drive the cost down by dropping the finishing operations and reduce the QC a bit, and probably use cheaper steel. Now I can afford it, and you get my money!

In short, there's room for both products. Quangsheng (sp?) isn't going to be the reason Clifton go out of business, and I very much hope they don't. They're serving different customers, or they should be. If Clifton go under, it'll be because people won't pay the difference. The extra cost of making a Clifton will be more than the market will stand. But even that's not the true story...

... the real issue is that our economy, the way businesses have to run, will have made Clifton uncompetitive. We don't want to give up our socialism, but it has to be paid for, and it's those costs -- business rates, employment laws, environmental laws, taxes of various sorts, pensions and so on -- that manufacturing here has to contend with. Some businesses are so profitable that they can pay those bills anyway, or do some international accounting tax dodge so they don't have to.

Small to mid-size manufacturing isn't that shape of business, sadly. It's a political decision as to whether we accept this as a reasonable price for our welfare state and huge state bureaucracy, or we do something about it at the ballot box.

By the way, I'm not putting forward an opinion here about whether the Chinese are right and we're wrong or vice versa. I'm just saying why it's far harder to be Clifton than Quangsheng. It's a political decision as to where the line in the sand goes.

E.
 
A while ago I bought a QS no. 6; one of the top notch Workshop Heaven ones. To be honest, I've slightly regretted it, not because the tool isn't good - it is.
Already the owner of Sheffield made nos. 5 and 7 planes, I'd expected the no. 6 to be a rather occasional tool (therefore, not one to spend too much money on). Little did I realise how useful a no 6 is: had I done so, I'd have stumped up the extra cash for a Clifton, or sought out an old Record.
My QS was great value for money, but I reproach myself for (a) the fact that QS workers probably toil for pittance wages in appalling conditions. (b) The folks at Clifton need support to survive in the face of cheap imports (just as I do, as a furniture maker).
I have already done my bit for Clifton by buying a no. 4.1/2 and a no. 7. I may yet sell the QS and get a Clifton no. 6 as well. My QS is good, but a Clifton will be better - and will get used nearly every day.
 
It is quite a quagmire working out exactly what form of IP (intellectual property) protection apply to what.

My company has just started selling to China, so the issue is close to heart. Copyright explicitly doers not apply to 3d forms, just to printed material, music, etc. Design rights are only any real protection within Europe, so although you might not stop someone copying something in China, you might stand a chance of preventing them marketing in in Europe. As far as patents are concerned, any Stanley or Record patents must be well expired (it's 30 years, isn't it ?).
 
It seems to me that, moral issues of copying (and I am bypassing what is and isnt legal under patent/copyright here) aside, the simple answer to the big players having their items 'reproduced' cheaply (and I havent noticed any LV/Clifton reproductions yet) would be to do the same thing that some other big-name quality producers do (and Im thinking of the likes of Gibson/Epiphone, Fender/Squire, Martin/Sigma, VW/Skoda, Veuve Cliquot/Cloudy Bay, etc) and have their main product produced in the home country and a much cheaper version outsourced to the far east. It wouldn't hurt their high-end line, but it would also act as a direct competition to cheaper alternatives but with likely higher QC.
I also wonder how long it will take before QS (or equivalent) reproduce modern infill-planes like Holtey? I am sure there is a market out there for them, and they cant be that hard to reverse-engineer (attention to detail and tolerances notwithstanding) for a modern engineering conglomerate?

Adam
 
Sawyer":2r657v61 said:
I have already done my bit for Clifton by buying a no. 4.1/2 and a no. 7. I may yet sell the QS and get a Clifton no. 6 as well. My QS is good, but a Clifton will be better - and will get used nearly every day.

Now is the time to buy, Axminster has the Clifton No.6 at £226 compared to Workshop Heaven who are selling the Quangsheng No.6 for £159.

So sell the Chinese No.6 and buy the Clifton. But I would suggest you do it sooner rather than later, that price cannot last forever. The normal price for the Clifton is somewhere near £330, a saving of £100.

Mick
 
I have Quangsheng, Clifton and Veritas in my Workshop, Clifton being my personal favorite to use, own and support.

My students try out all three and I find that 70% of my long term students buy Cliftons and the rest mainly Veritas whilst the short course students buy a higher proportion of Quangshengs. They are only occasional woodworkers and recognise the quality over the old planes they have used at home but just cant justify the expense for weekend woodworking (although we do get some strong feelings about buying from China). We try to support our English toolmakers wherever possible ...

Peter
 
Its been the holiday's, Kalimna - there isn't anything on the website and I've searched online. Which is why I asked here.
 
Firstly, I've owned several Clifton planes for many years, and never had a problem with them, so never had to deal direct with Clico. However, from comments made on this forum by others, if you ever have a problem, get in touch and they'll do their best to sort it out. They are NOT 'two days over the guarantee, it's your problem mate' merchants at all.

Secondly, the retailers stocking Clifton products are all ones with good customer relations reputations.

You need have no fears over Clifton after-sales support.
 
iNewbie - fair enough, that makes sense.
I have a (2nd hand) Clifton no. 6 and havent had any issues with it, so fortunately I havent needed to use their customer services. However, I can only second what Cheshirechappie says regarding comments online and the retailers stocking Clifton.
You should have no concerns in purschasing one..
Cheers,
Adam
 
Back
Top