tim
Established Member
Matt_S":1mruoiys said:
That's what we both thought - still its good because she is clearly so compassionate......
Chicken Run
- Thread starter tim
- Start date
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That's what we both thought - still its good because she is clearly so compassionate......
woodbloke
Established Member
My 2 euros worth. I saw the second programme last night with HFW and JO and fairly stomach turning it was too, 'specially as the intensively reared birds became larger and were increasingly resticted for space..not at all pleasant to watch but good telly none the less. My view is that it ultimately comes down to a change of attitude, on behalf of suppliers and consumers. This is probably one of the hardest things to do (of any sort)...you only have to look how long it's taken for attitudes to change on smoking, 20 or 30 years maybe at a conservative guess? So what HFW and JO are doing is really just 'knocking on the door' or 'awareness raising' in the hope that maybe this will be a very slender start to making this sort of industrial chicken production a thing of the past. Ultimately in my view their message has to impact on the buying public as once sales in battery chickens start to decline then hopefully firms like JS and Tesco will do something about it.
It's also a 'mind set' ....your'e charging round the supermarket on a Friday night with the list in your mit and one of the things is a bag of frozen chicken breasts, you pass the freezer counter and lob a packet into the trolly without really thinking about where it's come from...I know this is what I do and I suspect millions of others do the same. I think after this tho' that I'll definitely be looking for poultry that's more humanely produced, even if I have to spend a little less time looking at the vino - Rob
It's also a 'mind set' ....your'e charging round the supermarket on a Friday night with the list in your mit and one of the things is a bag of frozen chicken breasts, you pass the freezer counter and lob a packet into the trolly without really thinking about where it's come from...I know this is what I do and I suspect millions of others do the same. I think after this tho' that I'll definitely be looking for poultry that's more humanely produced, even if I have to spend a little less time looking at the vino - Rob
I believe that the problem is two fold;
1 The majority of people live in large towns and cities with very little idea of farming and how food is produced.
2 Most people want cheap food and therefore intensive farming methods are required to satisfy demand.
Having said that I am not making excuses for the way some poor creatures are kept but if people want food to be produced in a more caring way (ie more space and attention for animals) there is a cost attached to this...are we the consumers prepared to meet that cost?
1 The majority of people live in large towns and cities with very little idea of farming and how food is produced.
2 Most people want cheap food and therefore intensive farming methods are required to satisfy demand.
Having said that I am not making excuses for the way some poor creatures are kept but if people want food to be produced in a more caring way (ie more space and attention for animals) there is a cost attached to this...are we the consumers prepared to meet that cost?
I agree with you Rob on the timescale, the trouble is that the actions of do gooders has actually made things much worse in some cases.
On another forum I use a lady commented about a 'stuck Pig', and wanted to know what was meant by the phrase and was horrified when I explained.
To the good intentions of those who know so little many slaughter houses have been closed where I live and the animals are now trucked many miles.
The slaughter houses require that the animal must not have been fed 24/48 hrs before slaughter. Delivery is in cramped conditions to stop the animals from falling over, and it is not unknown for animals to be injured or die from the crush!
After delivery there may be many hours before the animal is killed.
So what did this humane system replace?
It replaced killing on the farm or at the village butcher's shop!
At a slaughter house a Pig is stunned, supposedly, before being killed, a Wild Boar is considered too dangerous to transport to a slaughter house and instead receives a bullet in the head, usually whilst its head is in a feed bucket.
Which system do you think is better?
Roy.
On another forum I use a lady commented about a 'stuck Pig', and wanted to know what was meant by the phrase and was horrified when I explained.
To the good intentions of those who know so little many slaughter houses have been closed where I live and the animals are now trucked many miles.
The slaughter houses require that the animal must not have been fed 24/48 hrs before slaughter. Delivery is in cramped conditions to stop the animals from falling over, and it is not unknown for animals to be injured or die from the crush!
After delivery there may be many hours before the animal is killed.
So what did this humane system replace?
It replaced killing on the farm or at the village butcher's shop!
At a slaughter house a Pig is stunned, supposedly, before being killed, a Wild Boar is considered too dangerous to transport to a slaughter house and instead receives a bullet in the head, usually whilst its head is in a feed bucket.
Which system do you think is better?
Roy.
woodbloke
Established Member
Roy - is this not a slightly different issue ie: rearing of livestock vs the slaughtering debate? I think what HFW and JO are concerned about at the present is the way that the animals are raised rather than how they're despatched for the table, though they are connectied. I am in agreement with you though that conditions for animals at slaughter time have deteriorated and involve a lot more stress for them. I used to teach in the depths of the Dorset countryside and am well aware of these sorts of animal issues, 'specially when most of the kids I taught came from farming comunities... I couldn't mention the hunting debate :roll: and expect to stay in one piece, tho' again that's another issue entirely - Rob
Agreed Rob, and the housing of animals raised for food, just not chickens, can indeed be appalling, Pig rearing is another example.
But if we can't raise them in humane conditions we can at least ensure a pain free death for them.
The supermarkets carry a great deal of responsibility in this matter as they have a nasty habit of screwing the farmer for his last penny. Giving a battery fowl a little more room would not necessarily raise the cost of production a by a great deal, but if the supermarket won't pay it the poor farmer has to go with the flow.
I have yet to see a supermarket that has asked its customers if another 50p on a chicken would cause them to stop buying. The mantra is always that the customer won't pay it.
The fact that there is a shortage of organically home grown produce, that is made by imports, gives a significant lie to their statements.
Roy.
But if we can't raise them in humane conditions we can at least ensure a pain free death for them.
The supermarkets carry a great deal of responsibility in this matter as they have a nasty habit of screwing the farmer for his last penny. Giving a battery fowl a little more room would not necessarily raise the cost of production a by a great deal, but if the supermarket won't pay it the poor farmer has to go with the flow.
I have yet to see a supermarket that has asked its customers if another 50p on a chicken would cause them to stop buying. The mantra is always that the customer won't pay it.
The fact that there is a shortage of organically home grown produce, that is made by imports, gives a significant lie to their statements.
Roy.
tim
Established Member
woodbloke":25o1cx6b said:
No - I don't think it is. It must be about the entire process from start to finish.
Cheers
Tim
Matt_S
Established Member
Well I watched the final part and was appalled and shocked at how the media and public turned it into a personal attack on Hugh and a publicity stunt!
Timing of his shop was either deliberate to get a bit of publicity or an ill thought out coincidence but no one can surely doubt that Hugh's heart is well and truly in the right place.
The whole thing exposed British people's atttitudes and left me rather depressed
Timing of his shop was either deliberate to get a bit of publicity or an ill thought out coincidence but no one can surely doubt that Hugh's heart is well and truly in the right place.
The whole thing exposed British people's atttitudes and left me rather depressed
wizer
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In my opinion.If something is cheap then the public will buy it. So to make any sort of significant change, you have to go to the root of the problem. Starting at the government then working down to retailers, before you get to the consumer. I felt Hugh didn't work hard enough on the takeaway companies. If the cost of chicken rises in the supermarkets, then people will go to McDonalds.
tim
Established Member
The fact is that to change the way consumers act requires either a thunderbolt moment eg a change in law or a long concerted effort which starts in changing attitudes and then behaviour. However, it is a long and expensive process and on top of this there is an unreceptive shop front with enormously deep pockets and margin to protect.
I applaud his sentiment but his approach was woeful. Two things were deeply flawed:
1. He took on a mainstream, mass market audience as his test. They, in general, will only follow actions taken by market leaders and early adopters after seeing that it is safe and approved of. For an example, look how long bands or new fashions take to filter to the average joe yet these will have been listened to or worn by 'those in the know' for a long time, years in some instances.
2. His self awareness is clearly low. For whatever reasons, there seem to be few people (on camera) who had much good to say about HFW in Axminster. I'm not sure I blame him for their response, I think its more of a deep seated negative reaction in the british psyche to those who have succeeded and god forbid haven't come from the local estate (If he'd been on Xfactor he would have been a bloody hero). That said, he and his advisers should have realised that and focussed their efforts in a different way or location.
The only way this type of change can occur is to influence the powerbrokers - in this instance the supermarkets. If he had brought in a financial model that made sense then they would have listened, got behind him and hey presto, job done. As it was he did little more than chain himself to the railings.
A real shame IMO because it was a lost opportunity.
Cheers
Tim
I applaud his sentiment but his approach was woeful. Two things were deeply flawed:
1. He took on a mainstream, mass market audience as his test. They, in general, will only follow actions taken by market leaders and early adopters after seeing that it is safe and approved of. For an example, look how long bands or new fashions take to filter to the average joe yet these will have been listened to or worn by 'those in the know' for a long time, years in some instances.
2. His self awareness is clearly low. For whatever reasons, there seem to be few people (on camera) who had much good to say about HFW in Axminster. I'm not sure I blame him for their response, I think its more of a deep seated negative reaction in the british psyche to those who have succeeded and god forbid haven't come from the local estate (If he'd been on Xfactor he would have been a bloody hero). That said, he and his advisers should have realised that and focussed their efforts in a different way or location.
The only way this type of change can occur is to influence the powerbrokers - in this instance the supermarkets. If he had brought in a financial model that made sense then they would have listened, got behind him and hey presto, job done. As it was he did little more than chain himself to the railings.
A real shame IMO because it was a lost opportunity.
Cheers
Tim
Matt_S
Established Member
Tim I think you made some good points and agree he could have put a much better argument together. For example the telly idea is never going to take off.
I think the big problem is that whatever anyone says or does there is no way free range will be as cheap as standard as it is too cheap. For many this is the end of the debate
I think the big problem is that whatever anyone says or does there is no way free range will be as cheap as standard as it is too cheap. For many this is the end of the debate
StevieB
Established Member
I think another part of the problem is that the consumer just doesn't see the production side of food. Go to the supermarket and look at the chickens - a free range one will look (and lets face it to the average person taste) identical to the battery farmed one. Given that fact people will tend to go for the cheaper one if money is tight.
IMO the only way to get people eating free range only is legislation to outlaw battery farming. Bring in minimum standards for rearing them with powers of enforcement, inspection and proper penalties for law breakers and standards will improve.
What I do find interesting is the concentration on chickens. The same applies to pigs, cheap clothes from Tesco et al made in the third world, toys from China etc etc. Conditions of manufacture/rearing/supply will always be at the lowest common denominator, typically to maximise profit for someone (usually not the producer). These conditions are almost always far below ideal but we turn a blind eye because of the cost. I have bought clothes from Tesco because they are cheaper than high street chain clothes which appear identical - is this as bad as buying a battery farmed chicken?
While the sentiment is admirable on the part of JO and HFW et al, I cannot help thinking it will come to nowt sadly without political will as well. As seen with the school dinners campaign (JO did a peice in the evening standard last night) its died a death with much of the government money promised not being ringfenced and hence eroded. While not a supporter of the extreme animal rights movement in any way, perhaps a slightly harder hitting campaign (50 people in cages the equivalent size of the space a battery chicken has outside DEFRAs office for example, inviting the agriculture minister to actually tour/spend a couple of days in a battery farm/slaughter house) might be more effective - would certainly grab news headlines and reach a wider audience than a channel 4 show.
Not really sure what the answer is, but make available a cheaper option and people will buy it. - end of story.
Steve.
IMO the only way to get people eating free range only is legislation to outlaw battery farming. Bring in minimum standards for rearing them with powers of enforcement, inspection and proper penalties for law breakers and standards will improve.
What I do find interesting is the concentration on chickens. The same applies to pigs, cheap clothes from Tesco et al made in the third world, toys from China etc etc. Conditions of manufacture/rearing/supply will always be at the lowest common denominator, typically to maximise profit for someone (usually not the producer). These conditions are almost always far below ideal but we turn a blind eye because of the cost. I have bought clothes from Tesco because they are cheaper than high street chain clothes which appear identical - is this as bad as buying a battery farmed chicken?
While the sentiment is admirable on the part of JO and HFW et al, I cannot help thinking it will come to nowt sadly without political will as well. As seen with the school dinners campaign (JO did a peice in the evening standard last night) its died a death with much of the government money promised not being ringfenced and hence eroded. While not a supporter of the extreme animal rights movement in any way, perhaps a slightly harder hitting campaign (50 people in cages the equivalent size of the space a battery chicken has outside DEFRAs office for example, inviting the agriculture minister to actually tour/spend a couple of days in a battery farm/slaughter house) might be more effective - would certainly grab news headlines and reach a wider audience than a channel 4 show.
Not really sure what the answer is, but make available a cheaper option and people will buy it. - end of story.
Steve.
gidon
Established Member
I thought the program was very good. It does frustrate me though when they spend so much attention on the one loudmouth that they'll never convert. I've seen this in other programs of this ilk before. You'll never convert everyone - she just wanted HFW to give her a free lifetime's supply of free range chicken!
I was glad to see some supermarkets finally comment - my Sky+ box missed the last few mins - what was the upshot from Coop and Waitrose?
I think his shop opening was terrible timing - I really don't believe it was any publicity stunt. But the program was pretty successful really I thought - he converted all those people on the estate, a lot of people did seem to agree with the ideal and the APTC canteen has come on leaps and bounds! Of course they'll interview a few people who only have bad things to say about the project and HFW but I'm sure most people like him - what's not to like - he a very amiable chap IMO.
Thanks for starting the discussion Tim - although I'd set it to record - got us to watch it sooner and glad we did. But having watched 2 hours of it before going to bed all I could see when I closed my eyes were chickens!
Cheers
Gidon
I was glad to see some supermarkets finally comment - my Sky+ box missed the last few mins - what was the upshot from Coop and Waitrose?
I think his shop opening was terrible timing - I really don't believe it was any publicity stunt. But the program was pretty successful really I thought - he converted all those people on the estate, a lot of people did seem to agree with the ideal and the APTC canteen has come on leaps and bounds! Of course they'll interview a few people who only have bad things to say about the project and HFW but I'm sure most people like him - what's not to like - he a very amiable chap IMO.
Thanks for starting the discussion Tim - although I'd set it to record - got us to watch it sooner and glad we did. But having watched 2 hours of it before going to bed all I could see when I closed my eyes were chickens!
Cheers
Gidon
Matt_S
Established Member
Waitrose have 50% free range already apparently, not sure if that is just whole or all chicke products. Hugh questioned if and when they'd go full and mentioned 12months. They said almost definitely not as it is consumer led and they are not demanding this.
CoOp agreed as Sainsburys to up welfare levels I think. But also agreed to change the very misleading packaging on the battery chickens.
CoOp agreed as Sainsburys to up welfare levels I think. But also agreed to change the very misleading packaging on the battery chickens.
woodbloke
Established Member
Interestingly, I just happed to pick up the 'Express' this morning at the barbers and noticed a bit in to the effect that battery farmed poultry would be made illegal by 2012, much reference to HFW and JO..This has just dropped onto the mat from JS:
Sainsbury's
Sainsbury's Supermarkets Ltd 33 Holborn
London
EC1N 2HT
Over the next few weeks you may see programmes on the television or read articles in the press about the farming practices used for chicken and egg production. We take our responsibilities for animal welfare
very seriously as we know that for our customers it is not only the quality of what we sell that is important but also how these products are sourced.
Currently all the fresh and frozen chickens and eggs we sell are British and we are one of the few retailers who can make this claim. We also sell chicken and eggs that are produced in a variety of ways, from Assured Food Standards (Red Tractor) to Free Range and Organic. The enclosed leaflets explain the key differences in the production methods for each.
In December we were delighted-to-win two out of the three awards that th-e charity, Compassron-in World Farming presents to the major supermarkets for their commitment to the welfare standards of farm animals. This includes fish, meat, poultry, milk and eggs.
Whilst we are pleased that our commitment to farm animal welfare has been recognised, we are constantly looking to raise both minimum standards and to lead the introduction of new standards. You may have seen in the press that we plan to stop using eggs that are produced by caged hens by 2010, and we have been presented with a Good Egg Award by Compassion in World Farming in recognition of this commitment and the work we have done in developing Woodland Eggs. In addition we are working closely with both the RSPCA and the Woodland Trust to make significant improvements in our chicken production methods.
We always look to provide our customers with a range of products that they can trust, and will continue to work towards improving the way in which we, alongside our suppliers, can further improve standards.
Judith Batchelar
Director - Sainsbury's Brand
The two Compassion in World Farming awards we won were Most Improved Retailer and Best Volume Retailer.
Interesting reading - Rob
Sainsbury's
Sainsbury's Supermarkets Ltd 33 Holborn
London
EC1N 2HT
Over the next few weeks you may see programmes on the television or read articles in the press about the farming practices used for chicken and egg production. We take our responsibilities for animal welfare
very seriously as we know that for our customers it is not only the quality of what we sell that is important but also how these products are sourced.
Currently all the fresh and frozen chickens and eggs we sell are British and we are one of the few retailers who can make this claim. We also sell chicken and eggs that are produced in a variety of ways, from Assured Food Standards (Red Tractor) to Free Range and Organic. The enclosed leaflets explain the key differences in the production methods for each.
In December we were delighted-to-win two out of the three awards that th-e charity, Compassron-in World Farming presents to the major supermarkets for their commitment to the welfare standards of farm animals. This includes fish, meat, poultry, milk and eggs.
Whilst we are pleased that our commitment to farm animal welfare has been recognised, we are constantly looking to raise both minimum standards and to lead the introduction of new standards. You may have seen in the press that we plan to stop using eggs that are produced by caged hens by 2010, and we have been presented with a Good Egg Award by Compassion in World Farming in recognition of this commitment and the work we have done in developing Woodland Eggs. In addition we are working closely with both the RSPCA and the Woodland Trust to make significant improvements in our chicken production methods.
We always look to provide our customers with a range of products that they can trust, and will continue to work towards improving the way in which we, alongside our suppliers, can further improve standards.
Judith Batchelar
Director - Sainsbury's Brand
The two Compassion in World Farming awards we won were Most Improved Retailer and Best Volume Retailer.
Interesting reading - Rob
StevieB
Established Member
would I be really cynical for re-writing those awards as
We were really bad, but now we have improved things a bit
and
Of the main supermarkets (volume retailer) we are better than the others, but that doesnt mean we are necessarily good
Neither of those awards are for reaching a recognised standard, goal or target, but are comparable to either prior performance or other retailers rather than a fixed benchmark. I am better than my wife at woodwork, but thats not the same as saying I am good at woodwork!
Cynical, Moi ?!
We were really bad, but now we have improved things a bit
and
Of the main supermarkets (volume retailer) we are better than the others, but that doesnt mean we are necessarily good
Neither of those awards are for reaching a recognised standard, goal or target, but are comparable to either prior performance or other retailers rather than a fixed benchmark. I am better than my wife at woodwork, but thats not the same as saying I am good at woodwork!
Cynical, Moi ?!
All these problems are as a result of our increasingly urbanised living. I haven't seen the programmes and don't need to, I am fully aware of what goes on and am only surprised that it has shocked people. It is nothing new, hopefully the programme will do some good.
You only have to watch some of the TV quiz programmes to understand that to the majority of our urban raised generations the countryside is simple something to drive through till the next urban sprawl.
Two MPs on TV recently argued that immigration was not a problem here at all as from the air it was obvious that only about 10% of the country was built over!
God protect us from governments.
You only have to watch some of the TV quiz programmes to understand that to the majority of our urban raised generations the countryside is simple something to drive through till the next urban sprawl.
Two MPs on TV recently argued that immigration was not a problem here at all as from the air it was obvious that only about 10% of the country was built over!
God protect us from governments.
andycktm
Established Member
Just another case of greed from the supermarket's :twisted:
I read today they get these chicken's for penny's (i don't believe everything i read,but it sounds about right).
In a supermarket late the other night chicken's 20p,i beliveve that is cost price to the supermarket.
I read today they get these chicken's for penny's (i don't believe everything i read,but it sounds about right).
In a supermarket late the other night chicken's 20p,i beliveve that is cost price to the supermarket.
Ed
Established Member
I thought for a few moments before deciding to post on this topic as it's always going to be emotive.
I eat meat. I like it. But I believe that every animal deserves a good life and a quick and as much as possible painless death.
I grew up on a small holding, at various times we raised beef cattle, chickens, ducks, geese, guinea fowl and sheep ( not all at the same time, it wasn't that big ).
Most of the animals had names and they all ended up in the freezer. Was it a problem eating an animal I had known? No, because it had as good a life as possible, it was fed, watered, given shelter and cared for. It was not force fed or pumped full of drugs just to make a profit.
I have hunted in the past ( rabbits etc) as a sport, but only if the meat was to be eaten. It's a strange distinction but I find the killing of an animal purely for sport disgusting, but if you are going to eat it that's fine. Odd I know. Hunting of foxes etc for sport is not on. If you have a vermin problem you deal with it quickly and efficiently (shoot it) you don't chase the poor bloody thing all over the country first.
All of the comments in previous posts on the industrialisation of slaughter houses and the transportation of animals I agree with. The death of the local butcher and slaughterman has not improved animal welfare one bit.
Just putting into context my thoughts before commenting on the program.
At the end of the day it's about priorities, the people in the pub who were interviewed felt free range was too expensive obviously believe having a pint was more important that animal welfare and putting decent quality meat on their childrens plates. It is as simple as that.
Whilst I believe there are people who live on a very tight budgets the majority of people in this country would prefer having a packet of fags a can of beer and watch sky sports than eating quality food. That may be a bitter pill to swallow but I believe that is the case.
I don't blame people for that as I feel it's down to a lack of knowledge on how food is produced.
If Tesco and the like were convinced they were giving the customer what they wanted and the customer base would not stand more expensive chickens why is everyone so scared about showing the customer how the meat is produced?
If it is what the customer really WANTS it should not make a single bit of difference to their buying patterns. But that is not the case is it? That knowledge is kept from the public in the interests of profit.
I think HFW should be congratulated on his efforts, whilst not executed in the best way possible it has at least sparked debate.
And remember it's not the Jade Goody look alike he needs to convert, its the silent masses. The other 10 or so people in that group who have changed their point of view as a result of the programme. That in my book is a good result.
All the best
Ed
I eat meat. I like it. But I believe that every animal deserves a good life and a quick and as much as possible painless death.
I grew up on a small holding, at various times we raised beef cattle, chickens, ducks, geese, guinea fowl and sheep ( not all at the same time, it wasn't that big
). Most of the animals had names and they all ended up in the freezer. Was it a problem eating an animal I had known? No, because it had as good a life as possible, it was fed, watered, given shelter and cared for. It was not force fed or pumped full of drugs just to make a profit.
I have hunted in the past ( rabbits etc) as a sport, but only if the meat was to be eaten. It's a strange distinction but I find the killing of an animal purely for sport disgusting, but if you are going to eat it that's fine. Odd I know. Hunting of foxes etc for sport is not on. If you have a vermin problem you deal with it quickly and efficiently (shoot it) you don't chase the poor bloody thing all over the country first.
All of the comments in previous posts on the industrialisation of slaughter houses and the transportation of animals I agree with. The death of the local butcher and slaughterman has not improved animal welfare one bit.
Just putting into context my thoughts before commenting on the program.
At the end of the day it's about priorities, the people in the pub who were interviewed felt free range was too expensive obviously believe having a pint was more important that animal welfare and putting decent quality meat on their childrens plates. It is as simple as that.
Whilst I believe there are people who live on a very tight budgets the majority of people in this country would prefer having a packet of fags a can of beer and watch sky sports than eating quality food. That may be a bitter pill to swallow but I believe that is the case.
I don't blame people for that as I feel it's down to a lack of knowledge on how food is produced.
If Tesco and the like were convinced they were giving the customer what they wanted and the customer base would not stand more expensive chickens why is everyone so scared about showing the customer how the meat is produced?
If it is what the customer really WANTS it should not make a single bit of difference to their buying patterns. But that is not the case is it? That knowledge is kept from the public in the interests of profit.
I think HFW should be congratulated on his efforts, whilst not executed in the best way possible it has at least sparked debate.
And remember it's not the Jade Goody look alike he needs to convert, its the silent masses. The other 10 or so people in that group who have changed their point of view as a result of the programme. That in my book is a good result.
All the best
Ed
