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Ed":xaqvvmq1 said:
Born in Bridgend, raised in Pembrokeshire, slumming in Surrey ( Hi to all the people back on the sunny side of the Severn Bridge)

Ed,

Ah - now I see why we see eye to eye - I'm a Tondu boy myself! 8)

Can someone please explain to me why we need intensive farming methods, GM crops to improve yield, cloned livestock ( I really don't understand this one - what's wrong with the traditional method of producing baby animals???) etc, when we are paying farmers subsidies for set-aside - i.e. to leave their land lie fallow.

I mean, it isn't as if we are short of land is it? Also, there is a clear demand from consumers for organically raised produce.

I appreciate that there is a cost premium attached to organic farming, but I am sure that much of the increased cost of organic stuff is simple economics - there isn't enough supply to meet demand - hence the cost is high.

It almost seems as if we are doing all this mucking about with nature simply because we can, not because there is a necessity.

Gary
 
Digit":3tkikrjg said:
so as to prevent inbreeding

I can see how killing them would do that! 8)

Roy.

Sorry Roy,

Another common misconception I'm afraid. Cubbing isn't about killing the young foxes - in fact it is actively avoided as far as possible. It is solely about moving them around to prevent them breeding with their close relatives, as this produces weak and unhealthy foxes, who get caught too soon to provide a decent days "sport" to the red-coat brigade.

Gary
 
Ed":2b929p1c said:
Consider BSE, a prime example of where human health has been effected by the relentless drive for profit from food.



Edit: Spelling

The ultimate responsibility for the way animals are farmed must rest with the supermarkets, it is they who set the prices in their price war with one another to entice consumers into their stores. If the supermarkets paid a fair price for the items supplied by farmers the consumers would have to pay accordingly...

Fox hunting... an interesting debate but maybe on another thread. It would be intersting to know how many forum members are for/against this and whether they live in rural/urban areas?
 
They certainly killed cubs where I lived in Bucks.
I noted in the press this week end that the RSPB is now concerned about the hunting ban as the number of ground nesting birds is suffering increased predation.
Now there's a surprise!

Roy.
 
Gary wrote

Can someone please explain to me why we need intensive farming methods, GM crops to improve yield, cloned livestock ( I really don't understand this one - what's wrong with the traditional method of producing baby animals???) etc,

Hmm, depends what you mean by GM. Most of the GM work to date is not about improving yield of traditionall grown crops in traditional pastures, but rather improving disease resistance or improving growth in harsh conditions. Imagine a crop in Africa that has a 5% reduction in the amount of water it requires to grow, or a chemical expressed in it that makes it taste noxious to locusts. Would that be a good thing or a bad thing?

Most people use the term GM to mean 'altering DNA'. Unfortunately this is exactly what breeding does. New techniques just allow us to do it faster. Selective breeding is a type of genetic manipulation. Dogs are the classic example - selective breeding for traits of interest such as agressiveness, or looks, or ability to farm sheep. The same technique is used to breed cattle to increase milk yield, and pigs to increase meat yield. They are all types of genetic manipulation. The Frankenstein aspect is merely an extension of this. Instead of breeding via traits and hoping good genes are passed on, we now know the gene that causes the trait and can select on its presence or absence to increase yield.

What poeple seem to object to is the 'playing god' aspect. Whether this is uncertainty about the technology, a fear of something new or the worry that by eating genetically engineered corn you are suddenly going to develop the urge to face the sun is unclear. Some noteable failures from the industry such as inability to prevent cross pollination (as well as some successes - Dolly the sheep for example) dont necessarily make the technique all bad.

Agreed, applied to todays modern farming methods in the Western world there is little need for further intensification of farming. Apply it to the third world where a 5% reduction in water requirement for a crop can make a huge difference and the situation changes. Of course, if you just apply it to the Third world and biotech companies are accused of peddeling modified crops or using poor countries as a testing ground for unsafe technologies. Apply it to the Western world and you are accused if over intensive farming, profiteering and playing God. Bad press either way.

Cloning is an extreme form of GM if you like. The recent cases in the News, starting with Dolly the sheep, are really a newly developed technique that allows a new offspring to be developed without the requirement for two parents. Reactions range from disgusting to wow, depending as much on your own moral viewpoint as anything else. Scientists are not cloning sheep to get more sheep for the sake of it however, as you say nature can do that. The cloning aspect is partly about making identical copies (something Nature cannot do repeatedly) and treating human disease. Cloning allows replication of cells with known genetic content almost at will, and allows transplantation of those cells to a host to cure a gene defect which may otherwise be untreatable. Stem cell research is the latest incarnation of such techniques currently in the News, and although highly controversial (depending on ones moral viewpoint) do offer great promise.

Anyhow, I dont want to hijack the farming thread onto one of GM, cloning and stem cells, just simply to state that not all genetic manipulation is to boost the profits of farmers.

Steve.
 
Digit":2f3dw6kl said:
They certainly killed cubs where I lived in Bucks.
I noted in the press this week end that the RSPB is now concerned about the hunting ban as the number of ground nesting birds is suffering increased predation.
Now there's a surprise!

Roy.

PLEASE - if you want to debate hunting start another thread. I have asked twice already.

Thanks

Tim :x
 
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