Cherry sapwood

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Pvt_Ryan

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I am trying to get a quote for some cherry from my local supplier, he mentioned it would/might contain sap(wood) and I said that was fine (not really know what he was on about and not wanting to sound stupid)

Can someone explain why he would mention it? and should I care?
(I want it for a table like JP's cherry-extending-dining-table-t46341.html if that makes any difference)

Ryan
 
Sapwood is the new growth wood often under the bark but not always. It is less mature, often a paler colour than the surrounding wood and softer. It is also more prone to rot and certianly not a good idea for outdoor work.

Purists will despise it and cut round it when choosing timber to use others might include it for colour variation and interest.

If you are buying your timber as waney edge boards (with the remains of the bark on at least one edge) you should be buy 50% more than you need to allow for wastage. If the vendor is warning you about sapwood maybe allow even more for waste if you are going to reject the sapwood.

hth

Bob
 
cherry-tree.png


I don't use cherry in the usual run of things, but I know there is a marked difference in the colour of heart and sap, and that it is very difficult to selectively stain it successfully, especially as it will change over the course of time and with exposure to light.

Not saying you have to stain it of course. You might like the variation in colour, especially with a lot of narrow boards glued up to make the total width. Personally I'm not keen.

Timber merchants tell us that sapwood is not a defect - I disagree personally, and cut it all out on oak and American black walnut. It's quite good for the woodburner.
 
When you say buy 50% more, do you mean when I want a 150mm wide board ask for a 235mm? or do you mean buy 3m instead of 2m?

I think you mean the former but I'd rather not take the risk.. :D
 
Pvt_Ryan":1wd3ky63 said:
When you say buy 50% more, do you mean when I want a 150mm wide board ask for a 235mm? or do you mean buy 3m instead of 2m?

I think you mean the former but I'd rather not take the risk.. :D

It sort of depends on how you plan to cut it and what sizes you want. Wider boards will be dearer generally and for a table top you could cut the boards narrower and use more of them to get the final width.
Generally sapwood causes you to cut the boards narrower. Have a look at what the supplier is offering . Don't buy blind unless the price is cheap.
Price up some different widths and have a sketch with pencil & paper.

Bob
 
I quite like the contrast of sap wood and have used small amounts in my work for that reason. Don't completely dismiss it. But it is more susceptible to woodworm and the like than the denser heart wood.
 
I am trying to get a quote for some cherry from my local supplier, he mentioned it would/might contain sap(wood) and I said that was fine (not really know what he was on about and not wanting to sound stupid)

Can someone explain why he would mention it? and should I care?

The North American grading system is significantly different to British custom and practice and it frequently catches British buyers out because they don't understand the system. It is in fact very logical once you've mastered it. I don't expect everyone will get the full gist from the following abridged extract from a manuscript I've created on the topic. However, you have to bear in mind that sapwood is not a fault; it's a natural part of a tree's structure. Sapwood may be desirable or undesirable and it depends on the species and the end use. In the American visual grading system the rules for heartwood and sapwood varies from species to species. Sapwood in cherry is considered undesirable as it detracts from the brown heartwood most buyers seek, whereas in ash and maple it’s considered desirable as it’s white. Slainte.
*******************************************************************************

"The North Americans have a well structured system of grading their timber for aesthetic qualities prior to its saleThe National Hardwood Lumber Association (NHLA) oversees the system. The grading system developed in the latter part of the 19th century and uses feet and inches as the measurement units. The grading method is perfectly suited to the Imperial system it sprang from.

First and Seconds Grade (FAS)

These are the best grades that provide long clear cuts out of a plank. Initial assessment of both sides of the board determine which is the best side and then the grading is allocated by reading the poorest side. The board must yield at least 83-1/3% (10/12’ths) of clear pieces as determined by assessing the worst side. The better side therefore yields even more clear cuts. Importantly, the inferior side must meet the FAS grade. The width and length of cuttings that the board can yield varies according to species, but the minimum board size to go into this grade is 8’ long by 6” wide. Clear cuts achievable from a board of this size, or longer and wider must yield pieces that are at minimum 7’ long by 3” wide, or 5’ long by 4” wide.

FAS One Face Grade (F1F)

Just below the FAS grade is F1F where the best face must meet FAS rules, ie, cutting sizes of 3” X 7’ or 4” X 5’, but the worst face meets the criteria for Number 1 Common grade, or better.

10.4.3 F1F Grade in Cherry and Walnut

As just described, judgement of the F1F grade comes from reading the best face therefore only one face must to show enough defect free wood to make the grade. It’s possible for the worst face to be virtually all sapwood but the board will still make the grade. Therefore, buyer beware. It's imperative you understand this when you're buying both cherry and walnut to avoid unrealistic expectations and disappointment.

Also be aware that both walnut and cherry will sometimes come in narrower boards than you'd normally expect for the F1F grade, with 4" wide boards permitted in some cases. This is due to the pressure on supply where large trees aren't so readily available; excluding much sought after colourful timbers like cherry and walnut would mean these narrower boards might not be used at all to make up long and wide panels, but would go into a lower grade most frequently used for smaller parts, eg, door frames, table rails, and so on. Large scale manufacturers in North America, and elsewhere, commonly make up wide panels from narrow stock anyway. They even take clear wide boards, rip them into standard widths of, say, 2” (50 mm) flip and rearrange the rippings created and rejoin them into the requisite panel widths for table tops, cabinet panels, etc."
 
Well I've used sapwood in cherry quite a lot. Sometimes I feel it adds something to the piece and sometimes not. But on the whole I never design round it - if it's there that's ok.

When it comes to choosing more wood to allow for sapwood wastage it unfortunately comes down to visiting the timber yard and choosing the boards you want. Most wood tends to be cut 'through and through' and as such sapwood can occur either at the edges of boards or in the middle if it's the first board cut from the round log. Be very careful in the latter case as the board will curl quite a lot.

Try and come up with a good idea of how much wood you'll need based on the sizes of the components and buy accordingly. One of the good things about buying too much wood is that it always makes you want to use it in another piece, so it never gets wasted.
 
Does anyone have any photos of completed work that includes both heart wood and sap wood? It might serve to illustrate how nice/bad it can be.
 
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There is sapwood evident in all the above - the lighter coloured streaks. Most evident at the bottom of the chest of drawers and on the left column of the fireplace.
 
SP":40jeaix8 said:
woodbloke":40jeaix8 said:
:-# [-( :-# :roll: :lol: - Rob


..do I take it you don't like sapwood or is it just some sort of in joke?

Correct. As others well know, it's one of my pet hates and something I try and avoid like the plauge - Rob
 
I quite like it and am doing my whole house in cherry interior joinery

PICT0890.jpg


You can see the sapwood on this door casing but it adds to the interest IMHO
 
Didn't think it would be this controversial.

I have to say SP I like it in your drawers but not the fireplace.

Without having done anything in cherry before I think I can see in some pieces it really is nice and sets a nice contrast, but in others like the fireplace (sorry SP) it looks out of place and not very pleasing.

I am thinking for it to work in a table the pieces need to be chosen so that it gives a stripy (zebra) effect of alternating colours but the sap wood needs to be fairly uniform in each piece.

Thanks for all the replies and especially the photos as they really helped me see the contrast which is a lot more pronounced than I thought it would be.

Ryan
 
SP":2my9v9rj said:

Really like this piece of yours in particular. Can I ask what species you used for the drawer sides? I'm interested to know whether you went for a contrasting timber.
 
Olly,
Thanks. I just used poplar for the sides - 9.5mm thick. Dovetailed at the front and trenched at the back. Cherry slips on the bottom edges of the sides to equalise wear.
Shellac'd the sides and interior of each drawer.
1291554171_resized.jpg
 
PR,

Just buy the widest boards you can get in the thicknesses you want. Order two or three boards more than you think you will need. That way you can cut away sapwood and still have enough timber to finish the job.
HTH

John
 

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