Can you help re: Patents pls

[TEO]

Hi all,

I'm hoping that someone here may have some experience with patents;

I've designed and built some furniture for my campervan. One of the pieces is a table with features that I've never seen anywhere before. Van people can be a bit like tool nuts; very passionate about their vans and I think there's a market for this idea within the campervan crowd and possibly a wider market for limited space applications where a table's needed?

Now of course I'm chuffed to bits with the design and the fact that it works and I've made it etc. etc. and so this may just be ego running away in the first flush of success. However I'm keen to hear whether others here have made any use of patents for their ideas, whether they're worth the bother and if anybody has ideas about ways of taking an idea to market while keeping the bread and butter job going?

Thanks,
T

 

[RogerS]

T

First do not post any more details or anything anywhere about your invention.

I did have a link to searching priors' at the Patent Office but can't find it sadly as I also need it! You can eliminate a lot of wasted time and effort and money by searching to see if anyone has beaten you to it. This is exactly what any Patent Attorney/Agent will do anyway.

Applying for a patent will set you back close to £1000 by the time you've paid all the various fees and charges etc with your Patent Attorney/Agent (if not more).

You can save money by drafting your own patent application. It depends on how confident you are in doing this but you still have to route the application via an agent AFAIK.

Assuming you do go ahead then the time that it will take for the Patent Office to evaluate your application is as long as a piece of string. There are no guarantees on the time it will take. Think a year and then add some. But you might get lucky and it will come through sooner. If you are OK then there won't be any objections and your patent will be granted. Otherwise you might get some objections which may or may not be easily alterable in the application and resubmission. This is where your initial searching pays off and you have to be realistic that your invention is unique. Rose tinted specs and all that.

OK - so now youve got your Patent granted. So what are you going to do about it? Start manufacturing yourself? Go on Dragons' Den? Licence it to an existing manufacturer/supplier? Whatever you decide will take time, effort and money so are you really sure that you have that? Is there really a market and at what price and at what cost to manufacture? This is where the potential problem comes in since how do you find this out without spilling the beans? You can stick 'Commercial In Confidence' on all your documents until the cows come home but if someone decides to ignore it then have you got the deep pocket needed to sue them?

Sorry if this sounds like too much negativism but, believe me, this is the reality. DAMHIKT.

 

[MikeG.]

Roger,

was your estimate of costs based on a UK patent, or a worldwide one?

Mike

 

[RogerS]

Mike

It wasn't an estimate but what I paid when I made an application a year or so ago. It was for UK only.

And, no, it wasn't granted which, if I hadn't been so far up myself with its' 'uniqueness' (not) then I would have listened to the Patent Agent.

Roger

 

[lurker]

I have 3 world wide patents to my name. If you watch TV that features Genetic fingerprinting labs (not CSI :lol: ) you will often catch sight of one in the background 8)

To be honest they are not worth the effort except for reasons of vanity - the money I make from them just keeps them afloat and thats because I have a good relationship with the 2 manufacturers using them. Because of falling sales (20 year old technology) I think they have another couple of years before I will allow them to die.

All the work & major costs were done by a company I worked for (as a designer) who ultimately went bust - I took "ownership" as part of my serverance.

Its hell of a lot of work (& money) setting these up and with a little guile easy for a manufacturer/competitor to get around ( Ask Mr Dyson!). Or even just blatantly ignoring the patent - unless you fancy your chances suing some chinese firm.

 

[TEO]

Thanks Guys,
Can't say I'm too surprised at the responses, I think I'd arrived at a similar conclusion.
Hmm..must think harder...
Cheers,
T

 

[xy mosian]

I'm no expert, but I did hear one piece of potentially good advice.

Make a copy of all your design notes, drawings etc., add photographs of the work/piece and mail them to yourself by registered mail. Do not open the letter. That way, if needed, you have proof of the age of your designs, by the registration. This may be required if someone else comes up with similar ideas, either by design originality or copying.

HTH

xy

 

[bob321]

I'm no expert, but I did hear one piece of potentially good advice.

Make a copy of all your design notes, drawings etc., add photographs of the work/piece and mail them to yourself by registered mail. Do not open the letter. That way, if needed, you have proof of the age of your designs, by the registration. This may be required if someone else comes up with similar ideas, either by design originality or copying.

HTH

xy

does not stand in a court of law :x :!:


bob321

 

[Paul Chapman]

Might be an idea to contact Trevor Baylis, the bloke who developed the wind-up radio. He has an organisation to help inventors http://www.trevorbaylisbrands.com/

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[xy mosian]

bob321 and all, sorry

xy

 

[CNC Paul]

T

You might be better off here http://acid.eu.com/

 

[wizer]

Make a copy of all your design notes, drawings etc., add photographs of the work/piece and mail them to yourself by registered mail. Do not open the letter. That way, if needed, you have proof of the age of your designs, by the registration. This may be required if someone else comes up with similar ideas, either by design originality or copying.

This was the first thing that ran through my mind. Back in my DJ days, we used to try to make our own tracks. When we stumbled on a track that we thought would hit the big time, it would go in an envelope and get registered back to one of us. Clearly, we never hit the big time, but we did manage to sell a few re-mixes back in the mid 90's. I'd be interested how solid this method is in law. I guess there are ways around it.

 

[big soft moose]

Make a copy of all your design notes, drawings etc., add photographs of the work/piece and mail them to yourself by registered mail. Do not open the letter. That way, if needed, you have proof of the age of your designs, by the registration. This may be required if someone else comes up with similar ideas, either by design originality or copying.

This was the first thing that ran through my mind. Back in my DJ days, we used to try to make our own tracks. When we stumbled on a track that we thought would hit the big time, it would go in an envelope and get registered back to one of us. Clearly, we never hit the big time, but we did manage to sell a few re-mixes back in the mid 90's. I'd be interested how solid this method is in law. I guess there are ways around it.

it doesnt stand up because it would be easy to falsify - either by falsifying the royal mail stamps or by steaming an old envelope open and substituting the contents.

if you need to prove date of origination of documents you can get a solicitor to certify them which is a surer method.

on the other legal issues , i'm sure jake will be along eventually to give us a definitive opinion

 

[TEO]

Thanks again everyone, all the advice is appreciated.
T

 

[Jake]

I don't know much about applying for patents, but having litigated a couple I can say that I wouldn't bother with one which you had drafted yourself. The art of the patent lawyer is to draft the thing so it catches as much as possible, and circumvents as many of the by-pass routes as possible. It's a real art. Even the experts leave gaps and holes.

 

[big soft moose]

my feeling is that for something like a campervan table - which with the best will in the world is a fairly small market it probably isnt going to be worth the time and hassle - particularly as even if you did get a patent you probably wouldnt want a prolonged legal battle, which you might not win, if it was infringed.

better to spend your time making and marketing them - because if you can grab a decent market share at a fair price it is unlikely that its going to be worth a competitor ripping of the design as they couldnt easily undercut you ( its hard to see the chinese industrial complex muscling in on your market like they do with say computers ).

 

[bob321]

i was going to get a patent, and the ipo (interlectual property office) the internal fee is about £80.. what about a design right, the whole process costs about £80 for quick time and £60 for slow, the whole process takes about 3 - 6 months and lasts about 20yrs. . .


bob321

 

[lurker]

I don't know much about applying for patents, but having litigated a couple I can say that I wouldn't bother with one which you had drafted yourself. The art of the patent lawyer is to draft the thing so it catches as much as possible, and circumvents as many of the by-pass routes as possible. It's a real art. Even the experts leave gaps and holes.

Absolutley!
Which is why you have to "invest" big money up front to pay for this expertise.

 

[bugbear]

Make a copy of all your design notes, drawings etc., add photographs of the work/piece and mail them to yourself by registered mail. Do not open the letter. That way, if needed, you have proof of the age of your designs, by the registration. This may be required if someone else comes up with similar ideas, either by design originality or copying.

This was the first thing that ran through my mind. Back in my DJ days, we used to try to make our own tracks. When we stumbled on a track that we thought would hit the big time, it would go in an envelope and get registered back to one of us. Clearly, we never hit the big time, but we did manage to sell a few re-mixes back in the mid 90's. I'd be interested how solid this method is in law. I guess there are ways around it.

As I understand matters, the young people copy music without paying anyway, these days.

BugBear (old fogy)

 

[wizer]

BB I think the point was to try and protect the original track from being distributed by someone else. But you're right, in those days piracy wasn't a concern to the 'DJ Producer', as it had to be on Vinyl to be used in the way it was intended.