Cabinet Makers' Floats

[Argus]

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In recent times I’ve been making all dry joints – no glues – held with drawbore pins, T&G, that sort of stuff.
It must be something to do with retirement and lots of time on my hands....... No matter.

This means that I make a sliding-fit mortise/tennon, not too tight and not at all slack and to get a good fit I’ve become a big fan of cabinet makers’ floats, which are ideal for this sort of work.

Guess what is very difficult to find? You got it. Cabinet makers' floats.

I know that L N list some (made for them by others) and I already have one. I won’t go into detail, but sad to say that it is not up to their usual quality.

But, it's an old style tool, supplanted in many places by routers and biscuits and they were never plentiful anyway, but there must be some out there lying in the bottom of old tool chests.

Just floating (oops, sorry about that!) an expression of interest if anyone has some that they no longer use!

(PS similar, but not the same as Plane makers' floats, - I know that there are a few plane makers here).


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[lwilliams]

Did you sharpen the floats? Unfortunately sharpening the floats is labor intensive hand work and they aren't shipped sharp from Lie-Nielsen. You'll see a significant difference in performance if you sharpen the float. I suggest a 6" double extra slim taper file from Grobet and avoid the new ones from Nicholson. Sharpening instructions are at:

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/instructions.php?id=120

 

[Paul Chapman]

Demo here of how to sharpen floats http://www.youtube.com/user/LieNielsen# ... 8-QB4pWoW0

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Argus]

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Did you sharpen the floats?

Yes, it is well known by all, including me, that they all need flatting and sharpening to begin with and periodically during use. For this I use my set of saw files that are ideally shaped to provide a keen edge.

I'm aware of LN's instructions as they came with both the original float and its replacement. Unfortunately, both floats came with a pronounced curve in the cutting bed that was impossible to salvage on the first and a great deal of work and metal removal on the second - hence my disillusion with LN and a search for better quality older ones.
As I said they don't make them and readilly exchanged it, but the curve is there on all their cabinet floats as far as I can see and I was fed up with complaining.


But, after flatting as well as fettling, they are capable of providing a flat surface with a high degree of finish.




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[PeterBassett]

Good lord that guy has shaky hands. :shock:

 

[lwilliams]

Yeah Peter, it's difficult working with essential tremors. When I use our video camera I have to turn off the image stabilization because the camera tries to fix me. Doctors can't do that so I'm sure the camera can't.

 

[lwilliams]

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As I said they don't make them and readilly exchanged it, but the curve is there on all their cabinet floats as far as I can see and I was fed up with complaining.


But, after flatting as well as fettling, they are capable of providing a flat surface with a high degree of finish.

I'll call Thomas Lie-Nielsen today and see what's up. This is the first I've heard of this issue.

 

[Racers]

Hi, Larry

I did notice your tremor on the Side Escapement Planes DVD, you seem to cope with it, and make some cracking planes!

My wife has a tremor in her right hand, she has Botox injections that reduce the amplitude for a while. They don’t know what causes it, she had a brain scan but they found nothing(I could have told them that :wink: )


Pete

 

[dunbarhamlin]

I developed similar tremors earlier this year - scariest part of what ails - couldn't type, let alone hold a chisel safely. I did think of the work you do with them, and couldn't imagine how you managed. Happily much reduced now. No idea what it was.

 

[Saint Simon]

Could someone give a reference to some literature on the purpose and use of these tools. This thread is the first I've heard of them and none of my reference books talk about them. What people have said sounds intriguing and I would like to learn more.
thanks
Simon

 

[lwilliams]

Simon,

I used to have a collection of references but have since changed computers and can't find it. One reference is from Peter Nicholson's Practical Carpentry, Joinery and Cabinetmaking:

http://tinyurl.com/2g5rup8

File makers used to make what they called floats but these were essentially just coarse toothed files. Cabinet floats and plane makers' floats have coarser teeth and can be sharpened with a file. The best ones were hardened to about RC 50 like hand saws. I've had a couple customers who went through British apprenticeships in the 50's and they learned to make the floats they needed. There are a lot of references to these tools but all those I've seen are very brief. A lot of old floats didn't survive because they were homemade and looked that way so people didn't place much value on them.

 

[lwilliams]

Argus,

I sent a pm. Please e-mail me.

Larry

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

I have used the face joinery float for a couple of years now and have been very happy with the construction and finish.

There is a review here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The Lie Nielsen Face Joinery Float.html

In the pictures it is possible to see how flat the steel was. There is a minor hollow, but really nothing I even thought relevant to comment on.

As we all know, LN have an enviable record for reliability, something that I certainly can attest to. What was the problem with the other floats?

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[GazPal]

We used to make our own floats using old hand files and/or 01 stock, but anneal, harden and then draw their temper to approx 58-63HRc (Not 50HRc because it tends to be a tad too soft and this degree of hardness is within a range reachable with mild carbon steels) instead of the typical file/rasp hardness of approx 92HRc.

Another source for floats is if you search for gunstock maker's floats, but they don't need to be highly priced items in order to work well and serve the purpose for which they're made. You sometimes see them at car boot sales.

 

[lwilliams]

Gary,

I think we're talking about the same thing but using different hardness scales. As hardened before tempering O-1 steel will be around 65 on the Rockwell C scale and a file will be around 66 or 67 on the Rockwell C scale. A good hand saw will be about 50 on the Rockwell C scale. Here's a link to the tempering information for O-1 steel using the Rockwell C scale:
http://www.artmetal.com/files/imported/ ... 1tech.html

 

[GazPal]

Gary,

I think we're talking about the same thing but using different hardness scales. As hardened before tempering O-1 steel will be around 65 on the Rockwell C scale and a file will be around 66 or 67 on the Rockwell C scale. A good hand saw will be about 50 on the Rockwell C scale. Here's a link to the tempering information for O-1 steel using the Rockwell C scale:
http://www.artmetal.com/files/imported/ ... 1tech.html

Methinks you're right and I'm wrong. I'll definitely have to double check which scale we used to work/guestimate to, as most of the time we'd judge hardness and temper by colour. I've just made a phonecall and the steel we often used was apparently a plain high carbon steel (Supplied via a source at Vickers Armstrong in Newcastle and supposedly something approaching 0.80 - 0.95% carbon content akin to 1080-1095), so that may have elevated the hardening properties a little more than with 01.

I knew I should've taken more notice during metalworking classes, but now know the reason I moved into cabinetmaking and luthiery.

We almost always used old file stock, but I recall they do tend to harden and temper higher on the scale than cutting blades which tend to be drawn/tempered back further for the sake of the balance between resilient, but less brittle edge holding properties. :lol: It's been almost 30yrs since the last time I messed around with smithing so the old memories a tad cloudy and it's showing.

 

[Argus]

Could someone give a reference to some literature on the purpose and use of these tools. This thread is the first I've heard of them and none of my reference books talk about them. What people have said sounds intriguing and I would like to learn more.
thanks
Simon

Simon, floats come in a variety of shapes principally to suit various trades. Wooden plane makers, gunsmiths and cabinet makers all have shapes to suit them. Some cut on the push stroke, some on the pull stroke, some with straight handles, some cranked.

They may be described as a type of rasp, but to describe the cabinet makers float, imagine a shape like a flat file about 6” long, smooth on one side and with teeth on the other.

The teeth resemble a rip saw, typically about 8 to the inch. So, if you have a set of saw teeth, imagine the teeth stretched sideways about an inch. Then, if all the teeth are parallel and at the same level, you have what is effectively a multi-bladed plane.

They are sharpened in the same way as a saw.

There are some very good pictures in a previous post by Derek Cohen, who has also replied in this thread.

They were never plentiful, but when you have a good one on your bench they can do some amazingly accurate work in the mortise and tennon department.

To my mind and for my work the whole row of teeth need to be flat and in line.

They are also a boon if you make stopped chamfers, as they can get the stop clean right to the end.

I hope that this helps,



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[Saint Simon]

Thank you all for the info.
However, from what you say I am not sure what floats offer when dealing with tenons, skew rebate planes seeming so efficient at this job. But maybe they have something to offer when tidying up mortises? Are they more efficient in the final fitting than a chisel?
Simon

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

However, from what you say I am not sure what floats offer when dealing with tenons, skew rebate planes seeming so efficient at this job. But maybe they have something to offer when tidying up mortises? Are they more efficient in the final fitting than a chisel?

Hi Simon, I did provide a link earlier to a discussion in this regard. Did that not answer your question regarding tenons?

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[GazPal]

Thank you all for the info.
However, from what you say I am not sure what floats offer when dealing with tenons, skew rebate planes seeming so efficient at this job. But maybe they have something to offer when tidying up mortises? Are they more efficient in the final fitting than a chisel?
Simon

In truth, floats tend to be best kept for refining roughly cut mortise and other joint elements with restricted access during the fitting process, e.g. bridle joint cheeks and inlets for box/side lock shotgun actions, etc.. IMHO being a form of fast cutting rasp, they aren't a replacement for rebate/shoulder planes or chisels when fine tuning joints, but do serve well when plane making and refining mortise.

I'd not use them for exposed work, unless refining fit and finish via planing/paring and - in all honesty - riffler files are more than capable of doing the same job, with a great deal more variety and for a great deal less expense. Floats are handy to have around, but not a necessity and aren't necessarily as efficient at producing accurate work as a well set up plane or chisel. :wink: