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MusicMan":2lvh2i1e said:
.
Of course, having three means that I could check them against each other and make them all perfect. .Keith
Now that's a memory I could have done without, just how subjective can a persons view of when 'good enough' is 'good enough', perhaps leaving that hot lump of metal where he could pick it up was not a good idea after all !!
Talk about ending the day in a 'Blue' /ed mood.
 
MusicMan":2nz9tzwf said:
Custard, what you say about improvised "flat" substrates is true. However, small engineering surface plates are not tooooo expensive on eBay. I have two cast iron and one granite, ranging from 12"x12" to 18"x18" and they were in the region £20 - £30 each. One of them I do use for metalwork marking but one I keep in the wood shop and use it for planes and chisels and the occasional measurement.

Of course, having three means that I could check them against each other and make them all perfect. If I could pick them all up.

Keith

Trust me, they leave you out on the cold for long planes, and a good run of flat glass that's cheap will make the process of flattening a lot faster.

I started with the ultra flat glass, then granite (9x12 and then 12x18 - those are still useful to have) and then did the long run with loose sheets and liquid (water in my case) and went to PSA aluminum oxide adhesive paper rolls and the last iteration is far and away the best for lapping planes in terms of speed and results. A user on another forum got a piece of scrap polished granite (I wouldn't want to move it) from a gravestone maker and that's another good option if something comes up salvage.

I have always been careful to have at least a flat run of several feet on my bench (like starrett flat) so that the glass shelf I use stays flat under pressure. It's not hard to find a spot like that somewhere in your shop, and it takes the heat off of the surface needing to be so rigid. Glass is not subject to any of the possible defects that custard identified (and I've had MDF get deformed just from ambient humidity - and this is the states where I am where I know average humidity is lower....i know because wooden planes from the UK always shrink when I get them shipped here and I always have to refit the moulding planes a bit to get them in good nick)
 
Think less about what to use and just create a flat level substrate. Melamine faced MDF is great, just make sure it's supported and does not deflect when pushed. It worked for me. An off cut of chipboard worktop would work. Even chipboard flooring, as long as you can test it with a straight edge and it does not deflect.

I think bugbear has mentioned before about isolated scraping or working with an abrasive block, checking progress with a straight edge. Never tried it but it seems in line with how people would of tuned wooden plane soles "back in the day" with another plane or scrapers.
 
I use a fairly simple method, a sanding belt tensioned between the jaws of an old workmate with a piece of bathroom wall tile in the centre of the belt. I slip one end of the belt over one jaw and the other into a groove in the second jaw, slip the tile in and tension. It’s slightly to the side of the jaws but with the tile in place I don’t think that matters. Not really useful for long planes though.
Neil
 
D_W":3ipy1hdj said:
MusicMan":3ipy1hdj said:
+1 for Jacob's comment. Paper wet-and-dry emery sheets flooded with white spirit holds them well enough with surface tension, and will be significantly flatter than cloth or sheets stuck with adhesive. Wet-and-dry paper works MUCH better when wet, and white spirit won't rust your tools.

Keith

You don't want sheets with adhesive. You want rolls with adhesive - paper backed, stuck to a clean dry flat surface. They will cut faster, and you can vacuum or magnet the metal swarf.
You don't want adhesive at all. Paper backed wet n dry plus white spirit is cheaper, easier and flatter then all the alternatives mentioned here. You flood it with white spirit (or other fluid) - it keeps the paper stuck down and helps float off the swarf.
 
How much is it per sheet? I've tried both ways. A 3 foot run of quality al-ox paper backed roll (like mirka gold) dry will do much more work than wet and dry and it will cut soft metal better because it doesn't break down like silicon carbide.

It won't come apart (the heavy paper back) and the paper backer ends up being about $1 per small plane and $2 for a large one, at most. No mineral spirit mess and faster cutting.
 
Thin paper backed wet n dry sticks flatter with no adhesive, doesn't come apart and is cheap in A4 size packs. Cuts fast when very wet (flooded not just damp). 2 sheets end to end for longer planes.
I do it on a planer bed. If stone or glass then water would do instead of white spirit.
 
I agree with Jacob and think this is the 'flattest' solution. Anything thicker and with adhesive backing will have more thickness variation.
 
matthewwh":2ieo4yns said:
It might be wise to first assess whether your plane needs flattening.
...
If it does need work, you only need to get the toe, bit in front of the mouth and heel in the same plane. If it's concave between them but they all touch, that's fine. If it's slightly convex over its full length, then that too is fine for most work.
+1

It's amazing to me how often this gets lost in the noise about fettling of new planes and lapping of vintage planes. On Japanese planes the bodies are deliberately made not flat (and oddly from a European perspective, there are not those three points of contact).
 
MusicMan":231ckvp4 said:
I agree with Jacob and think this is the 'flattest' solution. Anything thicker and with adhesive backing will have more thickness variation.

Starrett says otherwise. The good quality paper rolls are extremely flat if you attach them firmly (of course, if you don't, they get attached firmly when you lap with them).

I don't know about low quality rolls, but I don't use them because the mirka gold rolls don't cost enough to warrant it.

I've pretty much tried everything that's been discussed here, including using paper as you're describing, but flooded with water. It doesn't work as well (not as fast and no flatter), or I wouldn't have had to go to psa rolls (which are especially useful if you do more than just lapping old planes - they were invaluable when lapping new infill planes that are much more work to finish after draw filing the tails off.
 
The whole point of wet n dry is that it cuts better when wet, and nothing could be flatter than the thin paper back stuff. If it's a bit curly to start with you might need to wait a bit until it is well soaked and been pressed down. If it's kept between boards then this isn't a problem.
Maybe the white spirit holds it better than water - come to think I've never done this with water I just assumed it would be the same.
 
Just had a thought, might help if people specified the grit size they start at to give an idea of how level the playing field is.

If one person is starting with 80 grit aluminium oxide and another 120 grit carborundum then there really isn't a direct comparison, even using a slightly softer abrasive you'll get much better cutting.
 
I use two rolls, but usually only one.

Mirka gold (only saying that not because I know much of anything about sandpaper, but because the rolls are good quality) 80 grit and once in a great while, 220 grit.

I prefer if I am lapping something to finish on a dull 80 grit roll rather than fresh 220.

If a plane has some grip after 80 grit aluminum oxide (that feels like extra friction), I work it over just lightly with another paper or fine abrasive block to knock the burrs off.

When I used silicon carbide wet dry sheets, I used anything from 60-120 as a starting point.
 
I use two rolls, but usually only one.

Mirka gold (only saying that not because I know much of anything about sandpaper, but because the rolls are good quality) 80 grit and once in a great while, 220 grit.

I prefer if I am lapping something to finish on a dull 80 grit roll rather than fresh 220.

If a plane has some grip after 80 grit aluminum oxide (that feels like extra friction), I work it over just lightly with another paper or fine abrasive block to knock the burrs off.

When I used silicon carbide wet dry sheets, I used anything from 60-120 as a starting point.
 
Many thanks to all for your contributions. My apologies for this late response. I spent over 45 minutes last night reading all the responses to date and typing my reply only to find that when I tried submitting it, it crashed and told me to contact the site manager or something similar. Better luck this time.
I should perhaps have made it clear in my original post that I do very little work with hand tools preferring to use machinery for planing, sawing and the like. In fact, I only own two planes – a Woodriver block plane that I bought from Peter Sefton’s shop last year and a Stanley No 4 that I bought back in 1970. I had previously sharpened the cutting iron on the No 4 and had a go at flattening the sole using an Axminster diamond stone.
The reason for my original question was that, although I could see that a granite plate would be fine from the rigidity point of view, sticking a piece of coarse abrasive on it would not seem to help with the flatness. I measured the thickness on both a belt from my belt sander and a piece cut from a roll. Both were over 1 mm thick and I wondered whether, in pressing down on them, even on a hard flat surface, would compress the paper by a few thou thus rendering the flatness of the plate immaterial. As such, I thought that wet and dry would be a better bet if “stuck” down with water. This is what Jacob and others seem to recommend although there seems to be a debate as to whether to use water or white spirit. Of course others maintain that ordinary abrasives stuck down with adhesive are just as satisfactory as wet and dry.
There also seems to be some debate about whether you can use MDF, properly braced, to get the sole “flat enough”. There also seems to be some disagreement as to whether an old glass shelf is flat enough for the purpose.
Ignoring the pros and con of the various methods, I’ll probably go for the easiest and cheapest solution. I have a workbench with a top made of 38 mm kitchen worktop covered by a sheet of 12 mm MDF. I’ll probably get a smallish piece of melamine faced MDF as Graham suggested, check that for flatness using my Veritas straight edge, and use that with some wet and dry to see how I get on.
My thanks go to Matthew at WH for his suggestion about using printer paper in lieu of a feeler gauge (which I used to have but haven’t seen in a long time since cars got too complicated for me to work on after about 1985 since when I have only owned diesel cars). One thing about the paper technique I wasn’t too sure about was, if you can’t get the paper under the rim, how do you know that the base isn’t concave near the mouth? Presumably by using the straight edge.
One final thing, before I leave Jacob and D_W to continue their debate, is that I noticed that Paul Sellers makes the point that you should keep the blade and cap iron in place when flattening the sole whereas Chris Schwartz stripped the plane down. My gut feeling is to go with Paul on this.
Once again, many thanks to all; 35 posts in just 24 hours!
P.S. If all else fails, I’ll just have to buy a new plane but that may be the subject of another post next year.

Martin
 
Student":br7nq0lm said:
One final thing, before I leave Jacob and D_W to continue their debate, is that I noticed that Paul Sellers makes the point that you should keep the blade and cap iron in place when flattening the sole whereas Chris Schwartz stripped the plane down. My gut feeling is to go with Paul on this.

I don't think it's critical, though there are definitely folks who believe it is as well as those who are sure it isn't. A machinist who flattens a lot of planes in the US always jabs at the folks who think the frog should be in the plane.

I leave the frog in the plane, retract the iron, etc, not because I think it's necessary, but because it's easier. Lap the sole, vacuum out the dry dust, wipe off the bottom and get on with use.

It's easier to lap a plane that's assembled and that has handles on it, too. Fewer strokes is generally a good thing as planes don't get flatter with more and more lapping, they generally go the other way.
 
You are better off with a straight edge (anything fairly accurate) and 'spot' sand/scrape until it's flat. . . . or as I like to say. . . . remove the concavity, just before the blade. That simplifies things greatly.
 
This:

"You are better off with a straight edge (anything fairly accurate) and 'spot' sand/scrape until it's flat. . . . or as I like to say. . . . remove the concavity, just before the blade. That simplifies things greatly."
 
I use scrapers for anything larger than a block plane. It is quicker and avoids the risk of rounding over at the ends. No mystery about it - you can learn how to do it and you just need a flat surface, some engineer's blue and an old file.
 

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