Axminster chatter-free countersink - and my 80 / 20 rule

[condeesteso]

This is the 80 / 20 rule for hand tools - that after a while you realise that only about 20% of all the tools you keep near the bench get used regularly. Here's one of my much used ones, and why.
I have an assortment of countersinks acquired over the years, from a ropey Draper from years back, to a Lie Nielsen - but the one I reach for almost every time is the Axminster chatter-free 5-10mm. I have it fixed in a hand drill (in my case a nice old Millers Falls, but any will do). It cuts the cleanest symmetrical c'sinks of any of them, and cuts them faster too. I plan to get another to fit to a short stubby handle, for getting into tight spaces.
Interestingly I hardly ever reach for the Lie and it may be pretty but it doesn't work great... the Axminster at £8.50 is a truly ace tool.

 

[Eric The Viking]

(typing with one hand and eating lunch with t'other) Is that the snail-shell type or the sort with seven or so blades in a cone?

 

[Richard T]

The chatter - free is the snail type.

You deserve commission; I've just ordered the set of three. I had been going to look into a better type of countersinker for a better chance at invisible riveting. Thanks for the tip off

 

[condeesteso]

Hi Richard - glad you like 'em - i manage with just the 5-10mm one, but they are definitely one of the best basics I have.

 

[Richard T]

They just arrived. Weird looking things ..... I wonder who thought of it and how long ago.
It's certainly not a design that would have been achieved by accident.
I'll have a play with them later.

 

[mtr1]

They just arrived. Weird looking things ..... I wonder who thought of it and how long ago.
It's certainly not a design that would have been achieved by accident.
I'll have a play with them later.

I had a veritas snail c/s about 15yrs ago, best one I ever owned, lost it working on site . don't know if veritas invented them though, my foreman had one that he bought from Canada three yrs previous.

 

[mtt.tr]

All the cabinet makers i know use these and yes they are very good

 

[Richard T]

I had a go with them yesterday. In wood, in this case some old oak bed frame, very good indeed.

End grain

Really smooth finish. And it's really quick - so quick it's easy to go too far.

With mild steel though, it's a different story.

The sink on the left is made with the new snail and on the right with my standard two bladed c/s. Although it's far from clear in this picture, the sink made by the snail is off-round. It has more blemishing than the other and while in use, far from being chatter free, it would not shut up. That is to say it violently moved the drill vice around on the bed - exactly how I would expect a non symmetrical bit to behave.
In short it appears to be very good for wood c/s only.

 

[Eric The Viking]

You can get very good results in metal too, but

-- you need the right cutting speed. Dunno if you can still get the 'Zeus' or 'Presto Counsellor' pocket books, but they're invaluable for getting in the right area (of speeds, that is). Also good for thread dimensions etc.

-- use a pillar drill and clamp the work firmly: the countersink is asymmetric and it's basically a lathe-type operation.

-- use cutting compound or a similar lubricant. I use Trefolex. Apart from getting rid of the smell afterwards (and a vague memory that it's poisonous), it's brilliant on aluminium and steel, and even improves the finish on brass slightly - greatly reduces burr when drilling, and makes cleaner-finished threads when tapping or cutting male threads by hand.

-- start it gently - once it's got a cone it tends to stay centred in it. If you rush at it, it can start off-centre and then will stick with that line.

TBH, a conventional countersink in a pillar drill also gives really good results with lubricant. You can also resharpen them with a bit of care. But I agree, a snail-shell one is great for wood.

Cheers, E.

 

[Keenedge]

I've got the Famag countersinks, snail type for wood and rose type (1594.012) version for metal, used to have the General Tool co hss one but never use that any more.

 

[tisdai]

I've just ordered the set of three , Thanks for the info

Cheers

Dave

 

[DTR]

you need the right cutting speed. Dunno if you can still get the 'Zeus' or 'Presto Counsellor' pocket books, but they're invaluable for getting in the right area (of speeds, that is). Also good for thread dimensions etc.
Cheers, E.

When I started my apprenticeship around 10 years ago we were issued with a Zeus book each, so they are certainly still around. I also have a Swiss Tech The Pocket Ref book too, although I prefer the Zeus. Invaluable, as you say. Unfortunately though mine don't contain the cutting speed formula, even though I used it daily. If anyone else can remember the formula, please enlighten me #-o

 

[matthewwh]

As far as I can ascertain a single flute or a snail will give the best performance in softer materials like wood and plastic, multiple flutes work better in hard materials.

I have seen a single flute FAMAG at a trade show but I'm blessed if I can get one out of them - it may have been a prototype but I'll ask again. I have been trying to talk Clico into doing a single flute version of the 475 for years. It's quite a tricky thing to machine because it's not a concentric cone, there is a taper to it that defines the depth of cut and even that can be a progressive taper so you get a lighter cut initially and a heavier one towards the top.

 

[Xplorer1]

I've just bought one of the Axminster snail countersinks today and have just had an initial play, in softwood. I found that it tended to go off-centre on every predrilled hole (which is not unexpected as its cutting profile is asymmetric with just the one "hole", compared to conventional c'sinks). What's the trick to centring (other than a pillar drill, which is not always practicable)?

 

[Tony Spear]

you need the right cutting speed. Dunno if you can still get the 'Zeus' or 'Presto Counsellor' pocket books, but they're invaluable for getting in the right area (of speeds, that is). Also good for thread dimensions etc.
Cheers, E.

When I started my apprenticeship around 10 years ago we were issued with a Zeus book each, so they are certainly still around. I also have a Swiss Tech The Pocket Ref book too, although I prefer the Zeus. Invaluable, as you say. Unfortunately though mine don't contain the cutting speed formula, even though I used it daily. If anyone else can remember the formula, please enlighten me #-o

Bunch of modernists you are!

When I need reference info of that type, I go straight to my 1916 copy of Machinery's Handbook. My Granddad had it from new and gave it to me on the day I started my Apprenticeship! :shock:

 

[condeesteso]

Hi Xplorer - I find that very odd... provided the cutter is getting full 360 degree rotations. It has a single cutting edge so needs to make full turns of course. But otherwise mine is really symmetrical, clean, fast... basically brilliant, in any wood at all, incl end-grain. Also hold it square to the hole (on axis I mean) - beyond that would be mystified.

p.s. was never my intention to recommend this for metals by the way, didn't cross my mind. But on woods it excels I think.

 

[Xplorer1]

Thanks for the prompt resonse. I was using it in a cordless drill and it was going round complete revolutions for sure. I'll have to take more care to hold it dead true I guess. And I'll also experiment further. Thanks again.

 

[condeesteso]

Hi X - if you have any old hand drill lying around, try it with that. I have found no more than 3 or 4 revolutions is usually enough, and I get good control with the hand drill, plus they seem easier to hold on axis. Mine stays in the hand drill permanently (not having any other use for that hand drill anyway).