Removing gloss

[transatlantic]

I'm working on this work top piece that has two coats of finishing oil and I want to apply two more so that it has a good amount of protection. The problem is that it is already looking very glossy. I want more of a Matt look.

How should I remove that gloss look?

Very fine abrasive? 600?
0000 steel wool?
Perhaps wax It?

I'm worried that any kind of abrasive will show scratch patterns?

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[ED65]

Waxing will increase the gloss so I wouldn't do that

Fine steel wool or another conformable abrasive are arguably the best way to do this. Wait until the last coat is on to do the matting work.

I'm worried that any kind of abrasive will show scratch patterns?

Go with the grain, use fine abrasives, it shouldn't be a problem.

 

[transatlantic]

Ah ok. I thought if you applied wax without buffing, it makes it look Matt?

What grit abrasive should I do this with?

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[worn thumbs]

I haven't tried it with an oil finish,but I have had success with varnish by using a Scotchbrite pad to remove the gloss and a coat of wax to eliminate the dullness of a totally matt surface.As ever,whatever solution you choose should be tried on a small test piece or the back edge of the real thing before committing to the process.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

0000 steel wool.

 

[Bodgers]

Scotchbrite pads under a ROS also work well for this.

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[mrpercysnodgrass]

My method of dulling is to use pumice powder applied with a good quality old clothes brush but you can also apply it with a sponge or a soft cloth. Pumice comes in different grades like wire wool which for some reason suppliers not longer state on the packs so for instance Fiddes pumice is course and Mylands is fine. I would go with fine. All you do is sprinkle the pumice generously over the whole surface. Start in the centre and brush with the grain as far as your arms will allow, using a fairly heavy pressure and gathering the pumice up at the end of the stroke to keep it under the brush. Go along the top, overlapping the sections. When you have done the whole top, remove any excess pumice then brush right from one end to the other in one stroke. (you may need skates) keep buffing like this until all of the pumice has gone then dust the surface with a clean slightly damp cloth.

 

[ED65]

Ah ok. I thought if you applied wax without buffing, it makes it look Matt?

Yes but you can't leave it like that. Apart from it being too thick to leave the least amount of rubbing will begin to raise a gloss.

What grit abrasive should I do this with?

The finest steel wool I think should be your starting point as it makes a good point of reference. 0000 steel wool leaves scratches so fine they'd almost never be objectionable, although you can go finer. But the finer the scratches the less matt the surface.

Non-woven nylon abrasives don't work in the same way as steel wool despite being sold as an equivalent, but whatever grade corresponds to this (white?) could be used instead. Between the two I much prefer steel wool for this, but it must be said that Scotch-Brite last so much longer. I have worn pieces that are years old and still have some bite.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

You can go finer than 0000? I've not seen, heard or read of one. :?

 

[ED65]

Sorry if that was ambiguous, I meant finer in terms of the scratches not finer in terms of steel wool.

 

[custard]

What grit abrasive should I do this with?

The finest steel wool I think should be your starting point as it makes a good point of reference. 0000 steel wool leaves scratches so fine they'd almost never be objectionable, although you can go finer. But the finer the scratches the less matt the surface.

That's not completely correct.

You can get an extremely flat finish using exceptionally fine abrasives, you just have to spend longer at it. And some people will object to the matting achieved with 0000 wool on the grounds that although quick it's a bit crude and obvious, in addition it's prone to looking uneven, shinier in some areas, flatter in others. 0000 steel wool is okay for a swift, basic job, but there are better options.

Percy favours pumice. Click on the link within Percy's post and you'll see why Percy's recommendations are worth listening to!

 

[yetloh]

I agree with Custard. Another post suggested matting and then waxing which is just a recipe for more work because the additional sheen obtained by waxing is only transient and you will need to keep waxing to maintain it. Far better to flatten/burnish to the level of sheen you actually want and forget the wax. One point which I don't think has been mentioned - before attempting to reduce the gloss you have, wait until the final coat of oil has fully hardened, a couple of weeks to be safe.

Jim

 

[Robbo3]

To go off at a tangent ... white non woven mesh is classed as non-abrasive. There seems to be no standard for colours or grit between manufacturers.
Steel wool 0000 for example, 3M is 800, Scotch 600 & steelwool direct say between 300 & 600
- http://steelwooldirect.com/grades-and-applications/

 

[ED65]

What grit abrasive should I do this with?

The finest steel wool I think should be your starting point as it makes a good point of reference. 0000 steel wool leaves scratches so fine they'd almost never be objectionable, although you can go finer. But the finer the scratches the less matt the surface.

That's not completely correct.

I believe that's a truism.

Anyone who doesn't already know can test the basic principle for themselves and judge firsthand. Sand a well-dried shellac, or fully cured varnish or paint surface, with P240, P400, P600, and finally P1200 if they have it, and see if they think the sheen increases or decreases as the scratches get finer.

 

[ED65]

The snide remark I can let slide but the validly of the recommendation has been called into question in a way that I can't let stand uncontested because of course it's not just my opinion. The reason I started using it for this purpose in the first place is because it's been a go-to recommendation in finishing guides for maybe 70 years, from authors as widespread as Charles Hayward, Bob Flexner, Aidan Walker and Michael Dresdner to name but a few.

Dresdner:
From his column in American Woodworker from 1994, Rubbing Out a Satin Finish:

[after briefly describing the process using pumice and rottenstone] I prefer the more modern method, using 0000 steel wool or ultrafine nylon abrasive pads along with a rubbing lubricant, such as soapy water or liquid wax.

Note that Dresnder makes specific reference to sheen increasing as abrasive fineness goes up.

From his blog, http://www.michaeldresdner.com/2009/01/ ... -a-finish/

Flexner:
"Understanding Wood Finishing", 1994:

The finest steel wool is #0000. You should use this or #000 when rubbing a finish.

My emphasis!

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/artic ... eat_finish
Worth noting he appears to give pumice lubricated with oil as a direct equivalent to 0000 steel wool:

Then rub with #0000 steel wool, or with pumice and a mineral-oil lubricant using a felt or cloth pad.

Here again Flexner directly states that as you go up in grit fineness the gloss increases.

 

[iNewbie]

Here again Flexner directly states that as you go up in grit fineness the gloss increases.

Having used Micro-mesh the higher the number the glossier the finish got for me. Not surprising really - I hear, originally, it was used for polishing scratches out of Aircraft Windscreens. Whether thats true I'm not sure but you won't see out of a lower grade of grit to a higher one... :mrgreen:

 

[custard]

The snide remark I can let slide but the validly of the recommendation has been called into question in a way that I can't let stand uncontested because of course it's not just my opinion. The reason I started using it for this purpose in the first place is because it's been a go-to recommendation in finishing guides for maybe 70 years, from authors as widespread as Charles Hayward, Bob Flexner, Aidan Walker and Michael Dresdner to name but a few.

Dresdner:
From his column in American Woodworker from 1994, Rubbing Out a Satin Finish:

[after briefly describing the process using pumice and rottenstone] I prefer the more modern method, using 0000 steel wool or ultrafine nylon abrasive pads along with a rubbing lubricant, such as soapy water or liquid wax.

Note that Dresnder makes specific reference to sheen increasing as abrasive fineness goes up.

From his blog, http://www.michaeldresdner.com/2009/01/ ... -a-finish/

Flexner:
"Understanding Wood Finishing", 1994:

The finest steel wool is #0000. You should use this or #000 when rubbing a finish.

My emphasis!

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/artic ... eat_finish
Worth noting he appears to give pumice lubricated with oil as a direct equivalent to 0000 steel wool:

Then rub with #0000 steel wool, or with pumice and a mineral-oil lubricant using a felt or cloth pad.

Here again Flexner directly states that as you go up in grit fineness the gloss increases.

Steel wool has a pretty poor reputation amongst professional finishers. Here's why,

-Steel wool is oiled in order to prevent it rusting. That oil transfers onto the finish which can cause all sorts of problems.
-Used dry steel wool starts to clog almost instantly (used wet it's not all that much better), which means it doesn't have a consistent abrading action. This is why I emphasised how difficult it is get a consistently matt surface with steel wool. The beginning hobbyist might not notice the difference, the more experienced maker can spot it from clear across the room.
-Steel wool shreds and deposits microscopic particles into the grain of the workpiece. If you're using a timber with appreciable levels of tannin (and that's many, many timbers, not just Oak) you'll get tiny black stains, even without tannin those iron fragments will rust, or possibly react with other finishing components.
-Steel wool has very variable consistency, there's no universally adhered to grading system so quality is all over the place. As sales of steel wool decline (it's being rapidly superseded by other, better options) the variability of the remaining supply just gets ever more dodgy.
-It's risky stuff to have in the workshop, in the UK it's one of those materials that requires a hazard data sheet if it's kept on commercial premises.

Flexner and Dresdner aren't writing for serious woodworkers or professionals, they're producing simplistic guides and basic magazine articles for the hobbyist newcomer. Sure, in that context steel wool has a role, it's widely available, cheap, and simple to use for undemanding applications. But the antique restorers, french polishers, and furniture finishers that I know and respect never used steel wool all that much even thirty or forty years ago, today it's pretty redundant for quality furniture making and finishing.

So, if you're just starting out and an old box of steel wool is the only thing in your workshop, then no problems, rub away. But if you've sunk many hours into an important project, or if you want to take your finishing to the next level, then you really should be investigating some alternatives.