High speed or carbon steel

[JT101]

Hi everyone

I just purchased these second hand wolf cub tools. Given that they have "made in Sheffield" stamped on them, and the company no longer seems in existence, they are clearly several decades old, probably made in 1950s.

I'm not asking for a definite, but what would be your hunch as to whether these are high speed steel or carbon steel?

I asked the previous owner, but I think they'd got them from a boot fair and so didn't know

I just came across this excerpt: "In 1978 Henry Taylor Tools was the market leader in the UK as the first Company to make turning tools from High Speed Steel."

I don't believe everything I read on the web though. Many thanks

Many thanks

 

[RogerP]

Try sharpening them and note the sparks produced then look here...

http://www.scrapmetaljunkie.com/241/the ... g-metals-2

 

[paulm]

Likely carbon steel given the age, the spark test above would confirm, still usable though will just need sharpening more often.

Cheers, Paul

 

[Bodrighy]

When sharpening keep a pan of water close by and quench frequently. Don't let them go blue or too hot. If you get a good edge they are (IMHO) far sharper than HSS and great for the final cuts.

Pete

 

[JT101]

Great many thanks.

As far as the grinding wheel goes, from what I have read an alu oxide, 60 grit, hardness I to K wheel is an all rounder for high speed steel wood turning tools.

My current cheap grinder likely has standard silicon carbide wheels on it

Assuming these are carbon steel tools, should I use the above mentioned alu oxide wheel, or, because they are softer than HSS, go for a higher grit and softer hardness? If so, what would you recommend? Thanks

 

[chipmunk]

If your grinding wheel is well dressed and you grind carefully and quickly (do not press hard) then you should be ok with your existing wheel.

White or red AlOx wheels are more forgiving and grind cooler but it's perfectly possible to use conventional wheels - you just have to be more careful and keep them well dressed and keep the tool cool by frequent quenching as others have said.

HTH
Jon

.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

As Pete says above, carbon steel sharpens better than HSS - it's not necessarily softer, it doesn't hold it's edge for anything like as long. I have a couple of old c. s. gouges that I rarely use as they are all but irreplaceable - I keep them for really difficult finishing cuts. You'll have more trouble grinding HSS than c. s. on any old wheel. remember not to burn c. s. and not to quench HSS.

 

[woodfarmer]

Could possibly be "tool steel" which is pretty good

 

[JimB]

I use HSS nearly all the time but as others have said, if there are difficulties, final cuts etc there is nothing like a razor sharp carbon steel tool. I read somewhere that you can always pick the carbon steel in a turners rack - it's the one with the least dust on!

 

[Bodrighy]

I have several skews that I have picked up at boot sales, wood fests etc that i use to finish of a lot of my spindle work. Apart from anything else it saves a lot on abrasive as well as dealing better with those odd bits of grain you get sometimes. Once you have got it nice and sharp to do the job just strop with a diamond every few minutes and it will keep it's edge well enough to finish the job.

Pete

 

[CHJ]

A lot of the Craft turners I see in Bavaria, especially those that have come over from eastern Germany or eastern Europe use home made (they are taught to make their own tools) skew type tools and they hone them with small hand held slip stones before they start a session and keep giving them a lick of stone every few minutes. Mind you they are usually turning very compliant wood such as Lime or similarly looking wood.

They're not averse to mixing and matching with HSS though.

 

[JimB]

Chas, I use spyderco ceramic slip stones in the same way and strop on leather.
ps. no connections to spyderco and though they are easy to clean my wife complains about the mess in the sink.

 

[JT101]

In answer to woodfarmers comment, that they could be Tool Steel, this as confused me.

I came across an extract from a book. Unfortunately I can't tell the book, or post the link but this is what it said:

Under page 55, section 6.3, it says "High carbon steel", also known as "Carbon tool steel", contains between .60% and 1.50% carbon.

I thought they were the same thing?

 

[dickm]

Interesting to see that these tools are described as "Wolf Cub". Had always thought Wolf just made the Cub drill and all its attachments, including the lathe one, not hand tools. But it sounds as if these could be made by one of the big Sheffield makers for Wolf, to go with the lathe attachment and just badged by them. Might be Sorby or Henry Taylor (or even Ashley Isles?)

 

[Phil Pascoe]

In answer to woodfarmers comment, that they could be Tool Steel, this as confused me.

I came across an extract from a book. Unfortunately I can't tell the book, or post the link but this is what it said:

Under page 55, section 6.3, it says "High carbon steel", also known as "Carbon tool steel", contains between .60% and 1.50% carbon.

I thought they were the same thing?

Afaik.

 

[JT101]

I just had a look at my grinding wheels, which I suspected were caborundum (silicon carbide) because the grinder was so cheap.

But I noticed some alu oxide wheels are infact grey, and the stamp on the wheels you can see in the photo has an A 36 or A 60

Obviously the 36 and 60 are the grit size, but does anyone think the A is for Alu Oxide?


Thanks

 

[Robbo3]

You can often tell old carbon steel tools by the pitting of the metal where it has (presumably) rusted. I would say there is little doubt that these are anything but carbon steel.

Under page 55, section 6.3, it says "High carbon steel", also known as "Carbon tool steel", contains between .60% and 1.50% carbon.

Advertising jargon probably.

 

[KimG]

Carbon Steel and High speed steel are not the same thing, High speed steel does have a high carbon content very like Carbon (or tool steel) but it also has additional alloying metals that give it a very special property, it's ability to get very hot without losing it's hardness.

Primarily produced for making drill bits, this is where the name comes from, the drill bits could be used at high speed and yet remain hard enough to keep cutting.

Carbon steel, though possibly just as hard (it really all depends on the steel) is not able to withstand much heating up as this further tempers the steels to the point that all hardness induced by the hardening process is lost, thus is you let a Carbon steel tool go to the point of blue colour on the ginding wheel, then that bit of the steel is no longer hard and will lose it's edge quite quickly (back from the colour will remain hard, but you will of course have to grind back to it, Very carefully!)

When sharpening Carbon steel, grind little and quench often, with High speed, grind but do not quench. It is not bothered by blueing.

Tempering and hardening are two different processes, hardening freezes the various molecules of fermite, cementite and carbides into a highly stressed but very hard structure, the problem with that is it is also very brittle, tempering allows the stress to relax a little, losing a bit of the hardness but gaining some toughness as a result, so in fact it slight softens the metal, thus if someone loses their temper, they lose their softness.