Who is in and who is out?

[Rhossydd]

[Simply that their economy is so dire that the nurses and doctors can't get any jobs.

A huge number of medical staff come to work in the UK, not because the money is better, but to increase their experience and expertise. They'll often then return back to their home countries to practice what they've learnt.
In same way a lot of English doctors spend time working overseas to learn specialist techniques and return here with added knowledge.

 

[heimlaga]

This case suggests that the ECJ was very protective of the Finnish minimum wage (as it generally is,given that such matters are for member states).

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... Dg&cad=rja

That is just one part of a very long story. When I was unemployed in 2011 or thereabout most employers wanted me to pay them money for getting a job or they demanded one year unpaid work before I could get any pay. All that was driven by EU. Then EU found they couldn't stay their course and we got that very positive decision you refer to but lots of damage was already done.
Now the unions are struggling. Juridically all is well though reality is different. Few younger people dare to join the unions because unions are again able to enforce minimum pay for their members. Migrant workers rarely dare to join the unions.
It is very easy to end up on the black list. I am on the black list and largely unemployable because I recieved help from a union lawyer when I sued an employer to court. He had withdrawn two and a half months pay as punishment because I didn't pay him his mandatory bribes. That is why I turned selfemployed before my health broke down and will turn selfemployed again when I recover.
Last year our conservative government planned some radical anti union legislation "to make us competitive". The unions threatened with a grand strike that would paralyze the entire country. Government withdrew. Now there is an uneasy stalemate.

If Britain has anti union legislation you neded to get that changed. Anti union legislation is just as bad as anti-enterprise legislation. I think that a sound ballance between employers and unions is a good starting point for a stable and non-violent non-facist and non-communist society. If either side over exploits the other something is bound to explode.

 

[Jake]

Absolute myth, Jacob. You are spot on. The British Transport Police are fudging their numbers. Must be. Stands to reason. You've implied as much.

[Figures released by British Transport Police show half of all convictions for pickpocketing on the London Underground are handed out to Romanians.

Information revealed through a Freedom of Information request shows out of the 5,280 reported pickpocketing incidents on the London Underground between November 1, 2012 and October 31, 2013, there were just 170 convictions.

Of those convictions, 52 per cent were Romanian.

I tried to find the source of that, lots of hits on the first sentence including the Daily Mail in 2014 and the Daily Express in 2014. But the only data access request it throws up from the BTP is a refusal of data from 2012.

http://www.btp.police.uk/about_us/your_ ... stics.aspx

The second sentence throws up only the result from Daily Mail in 2014.

What is really interesting is the Daily Mail article

Freedom of information legislation data showed 5,280 reported pickpocketing incidents between November 1, 2012 and October 31, 2013 – but just 170 convictions.

Pickpockets on The Tube included Britons, Jamaicans, Slovakians, Algerians, Latvians, Somalians, Bulgarians and Mexicans. Separate Ministry of Justice data showed the number of Romanians jailed in England and Wales has jumped almost 60 per cent in three years. The number in 2010 was 1,508 but leapt to 1,990 in 2012 and 2,530 in 2013.

So let's take that lying toe rag paragraph one sentence at a time. First sentence: presumably actual FoI data although I don't trust them given the rest. Second sentence: new paragraph, no explicit link to the FoI data, just an assertion by the Mail. Third sentence, implies nearly 50% were Romanian, but dumb Daily Mail reader has to be stupid enough not to parse that these cannot have been for pickpocketing on the tube as there were only 170 convictions for that (but they know their readership and that that is a safe assumption they will get away with).

Vile spit rag.

 

[Jake]

This case suggests that the ECJ was very protective of the Finnish minimum wage (as it generally is,given that such matters are for member states).

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... Dg&cad=rja

That is just one part of a very long story. When I was unemployed in 2011 or thereabout most employers wanted me to pay them money for getting a job or they demanded one year unpaid work before I could get any pay. All that was driven by EU. Then EU found they couldn't stay their course and we got that very positive decision you refer to but lots of damage was already done.
Now the unions are struggling. Juridically all is well though reality is different. Few younger people dare to join the unions because unions are again able to enforce minimum pay for their members. Migrant workers rarely dare to join the unions.
It is very easy to end up on the black list. I am on the black list and largely unemployable because I recieved help from a union lawyer when I sued an employer to court. He had withdrawn two and a half months pay as punishment because I didn't pay him his mandatory bribes. That is why I turned selfemployed before my health broke down and will turn selfemployed again when I recover.
Last year our conservative government planned some radical anti union legislation "to make us competitive". The unions threatened with a grand strike that would paralyze the entire country. Government withdrew. Now there is an uneasy stalemate.

If Britain has anti union legislation you neded to get that changed. Anti union legislation is just as bad as anti-enterprise legislation. I think that a sound ballance between employers and unions is a good starting point for a stable and non-violent non-facist and non-communist society. If either side over exploits the other something is bound to explode.

I agree with your conclusion, but that post generally sounds like you have issues with your civil society in Finland and your minimum wage legislation - does it only apply to union members or do employers just evade it if the unions are not involved?

In general, I think that EU law strikes a balance between workers rights and enterprise which is to the left of what we will end up with here in the UK outside of it. I have no idea of the relative balance in Finland, but it sounds to me like it is not dissimilar, perhaps with different causes and nuances etc.

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

Wuffles.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I would be obliged if you would stop accusing ALL BREXIT voters of racism. I voted 'leave' because I don't like being considered as 'nothing but a dog cowpat' by smug, arrogant toads like Junker & Co.

Immigration didn't enter into my reckoning, because :

a) I have enough sense to realise the value of most of the immigrants who come to this country:

b) I have a great deal of admiration for the immigrants who so devotedly help me and others like me, care for my invalid spouse. These sentiments extend to many others of their kind who keep our hospitals and care homes above water.
and

c) I empathise with them, knowing their reasons for coming here.

All racists might be Brexiters, but definitely not all Brexiters are racist.

John

I am really pleased when I hear people like yourself and Cheshire Chappie give your reasons for voting leave and they have nothing to do with racism and xenophobia or even immigration at all. While I think leaving the EU is a mistake in loads of ways I do actually have mixed feelings about it. The recent forcing of Ireland to sell off it's water utilities against the wishes of 90% or so of the populations or the terrible trade deal the EU is making with the US really worry me. The EU is in many ways an organisation that has come to represent corporate interests not those of it's citizens, unfortunately so have successive UK governments. Indeed if this was the early 80s and Micheal Foot and Tony Benn were running the leave camp I might well have followed them, I'm not sure but i might have.
What has me terrified however is the rise of every day racism that I thought we had left in the 70s. Only this morning I heard someone call a radio 4 reporter a paki (he'd apparently voted leave because he didn't like pakis). He followed by "I'm not being racist". Nigel Farage and UKIP have reopened a ridiculous fallacy, where rich people convince poor people that the reason they are poor is because even poorer people have took all the money, these are usually easily identifiable because they are foreign or not white. At least the openly racist BNP and NF were honest, UKIP lead with "I'm not racist but.....". The Brexit campaign (certainly the Farage wing) was really racist and xenophobic and they have won a great victory and will continue to try and steer this normally tolerant country down a dark path of bigotry emboldened by this victory.
Just to be clear I am not saying that all Brexiters are bigots, but it has certainly made them much stronger.

It's not just the immigrants that are being abused by a minority, quite a lot of abuse is being hurled at those that voted to leave.

Nobody has told brexiters that they are not welcome in their home where they raise their family. As soon as I have said that Brexit is racist and xenephobic on this forum people get outraged "are you accusing 17 million voters of being racist? Are you saying I'm a bigot?" Nobody is saying that. It is the movement that is xenophobic. I have always considered myself as anti fascist and anti racist, my granddad marched against Mosley, my parents against Enoch Powell and myself against the BNP and EDL, however sometimes I make racist assumptions and am the first to admit it. My daughters teacher wears a full on head scarf covering not just a head but her chin and neck (not her face), I made all sorts of assumptions based on this, that turned out to be entirely wrong. They completely celebrate Xmas, also Hanukkah (jewish), Ramadan (muslim) and Diwali (Hindu). My daughter and I are atheists and her teacher also completely respects this. All of you who are worried about immigration and multiculturalism should see my daughters school in Tottenham there are kids from everywhere and all shades of skin tone, many from East Europe but also from around the globe and they all get on fine and respect each other for their differences and for what unites them as people. For some reason the head gear of Charlotte's teacher made me think she wouldn't respect this and I was so so wrong. I had got caught up in a racist zeitgeist. Does that make me a bigot, no, but the thoughts I had were bigoted.
Paddy

 

[thetyreman]

we've replaced one elite with another elite

 

[Benchwayze]

For Pete's sake Jacob. You live and work all day in a dusty little hamlet, soaking up the peace and quiet. When you're not doing that you are escaping the 'lunacy' in your allotment. Just like the hundreds of other country dwellers in the 1940s, out of touch with reality, reading some grease-stained newsrag, after they finished their 'poached' salmon and chips. They didn't know there was a war in progress either; hardly!

I don't know first hand what Phil and Heimlaga experience, but I accept they are closer to it than I. Why not ask if you can stay with them for a month or two and then decide whether or not they are seeing things.


John

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

Pickpockets on The Tube included Britons, Jamaicans, Slovakians, Algerians, Latvians, Somalians, Bulgarians and Mexicans. Separate Ministry of Justice data showed the number of Romanians jailed in England and Wales has jumped almost 60 per cent in three years. The number in 2010 was 1,508 but leapt to 1,990 in 2012 and 2,530 in 2013.

.[/quote]

According to this http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... -year.html the number of Romanians in the UK trebled in one year but the number in prison rose by 60% in three years. We must have got the majority of dodgy Romanians early followed by more law abiding ones

 

[Noel]

Wuffles.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I would be obliged if you would stop accusing ALL BREXIT voters of racism. I voted 'leave' because I don't like being considered as 'nothing but a dog cowpat' by smug, arrogant toads like Junker & Co.

Immigration didn't enter into my reckoning, because :

a) I have enough sense to realise the value of most of the immigrants who come to this country:

b) I have a great deal of admiration for the immigrants who so devotedly help me and others like me, care for my invalid spouse. These sentiments extend to many others of their kind who keep our hospitals and care homes above water.
and

c) I empathise with them, knowing their reasons for coming here.

All racists might be Brexiters, but definitely not all Brexiters are racist.

John

I am really pleased when I hear people like yourself and Cheshire Chappie give your reasons for voting leave and they have nothing to do with racism and xenophobia or even immigration at all. While I think leaving the EU is a mistake in loads of ways I do actually have mixed feelings about it. The recent forcing of Ireland to sell off it's water utilities against the wishes of 90% or so of the populations or the terrible trade deal the EU is making with the US really worry me. The EU is in many ways an organisation that has come to represent corporate interests not those of it's citizens, unfortunately so have successive UK governments. Indeed if this was the early 80s and Micheal Foot and Tony Benn were running the leave camp I might well have followed them, I'm not sure but i might have.
What has me terrified however is the rise of every day racism that I thought we had left in the 70s. Only this morning I heard someone call a radio 4 reporter a paki (he'd apparently voted leave because he didn't like pakis). He followed by "I'm not being racist". Nigel Farage and UKIP have reopened a ridiculous fallacy, where rich people convince poor people that the reason they are poor is because even poorer people have took all the money, these are usually easily identifiable because they are foreign or not white. At least the openly racist BNP and NF were honest, UKIP lead with "I'm not racist but.....". The Brexit campaign (certainly the Farage wing) was really racist and xenophobic and they have won a great victory and will continue to try and steer this normally tolerant country down a dark path of bigotry emboldened by this victory.
Just to be clear I am not saying that all Brexiters are bigots, but it has certainly made them much stronger.

It's not just the immigrants that are being abused by a minority, quite a lot of abuse is being hurled at those that voted to leave.

Nobody has told brexiters that they are not welcome in their home where they raise their family. As soon as I have said that Brexit is racist and xenephobic on this forum people get outraged "are you accusing 17 million voters of being racist? Are you saying I'm a bigot?" Nobody is saying that. It is the movement that is xenophobic. I have always considered myself as anti fascist and anti racist, my granddad marched against Mosley, my parents against Enoch Powell and myself against the BNP and EDL, however sometimes I make racist assumptions and am the first to admit it. My daughters teacher wears a full on head scarf covering not just a head but her chin and neck (not her face), I made all sorts of assumptions based on this, that turned out to be entirely wrong. They completely celebrate Xmas, also Hanukkah (jewish), Ramadan (muslim) and Diwali (Hindu). My daughter and I are atheists and her teacher also completely respects this. All of you who are worried about immigration and multiculturalism should see my daughters school in Tottenham there are kids from everywhere and all shades of skin tone, many from East Europe but also from around the globe and they all get on fine and respect each other for their differences and for what unites them as people. For some reason the head gear of Charlotte's teacher made me think she wouldn't respect this and I was so so wrong. I had got caught up in a racist zeitgeist. Does that make me a bigot, no, but the thoughts I had were bigoted.
Paddy

Probably the post of the thread, reasoned and, most importantly, honest.

Children are our future.

I see the Dáil has plans to suspend water charges for 9 months while a commission investigates the whole mess. And Enda and company have as usual been so incompetent in introducing the charges (Ireland had to sign up to charges as part of the 2010 bail out). The water system does need major investment with 50% or so lost in leaks etc and, as an example, the town of Boyle still unable to use tap water for the past 2 years or so. The charges are unfair in my opinion, lack of investment and mismanagement should not be paid for by the public.

 

[RogerS]

[Simply that their economy is so dire that the nurses and doctors can't get any jobs.

A huge number of medical staff come to work in the UK, not because the money is better, but to increase their experience and expertise. They'll often then return back to their home countries to practice what they've learnt.
In same way a lot of English doctors spend time working overseas to learn specialist techniques and return here with added knowledge.

When you say 'huge' do you have any numbers ?

 

[DennisCA]

....
In Finland we have had lots of squabbles of the same sort. Nowadays even lots of natives are forced to work below legal minimum wage just to get a job in competition with the migrant workers.

OK you need unions and other agencies to oppose and fight illegal working conditions. They have more power in the EU rather than out.
There's been a lot of anti union legislation in the UK - the EU could change that and enforce proper wages and conditions of work.

Like I've said before, the UK is so rightwards compared to the continent that for it the EU is a leftist force. But from a scandinavian perspective it's a neoliberal market fundamentalist experiment run by the ghosts of Thatcher and Reagan.

This is why we want out of the EU, or reform it at least. A process made a lot easier without the UK to be honest. So I am glad of brexit. It was the shakeup needed to make the market fundamentalist elites in the EU to wake up.

 

[heimlaga]

This case suggests that the ECJ was very protective of the Finnish minimum wage (as it generally is,given that such matters are for member states).

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... Dg&cad=rja

That is just one part of a very long story. When I was unemployed in 2011 or thereabout most employers wanted me to pay them money for getting a job or they demanded one year unpaid work before I could get any pay. All that was driven by EU. Then EU found they couldn't stay their course and we got that very positive decision you refer to but lots of damage was already done.
Now the unions are struggling. Juridically all is well though reality is different. Few younger people dare to join the unions because unions are again able to enforce minimum pay for their members. Migrant workers rarely dare to join the unions.
It is very easy to end up on the black list. I am on the black list and largely unemployable because I recieved help from a union lawyer when I sued an employer to court. He had withdrawn two and a half months pay as punishment because I didn't pay him his mandatory bribes. That is why I turned selfemployed before my health broke down and will turn selfemployed again when I recover.
Last year our conservative government planned some radical anti union legislation "to make us competitive". The unions threatened with a grand strike that would paralyze the entire country. Government withdrew. Now there is an uneasy stalemate.

If Britain has anti union legislation you neded to get that changed. Anti union legislation is just as bad as anti-enterprise legislation. I think that a sound ballance between employers and unions is a good starting point for a stable and non-violent non-facist and non-communist society. If either side over exploits the other something is bound to explode.

I agree with your conclusion, but that post generally sounds like you have issues with your civil society in Finland and your minimum wage legislation - does it only apply to union members or do employers just evade it if the unions are not involved?

In general, I think that EU law strikes a balance between workers rights and enterprise which is to the left of what we will end up with here in the UK outside of it. I have no idea of the relative balance in Finland, but it sounds to me like it is not dissimilar, perhaps with different causes and nuances etc.

The absolute minimum wage is set in law and adjusted annually according to a living cost index. Other minimums for various professions and skill levels are decided trade by trade in separate negoriations between employer's central organisation and unions. Their make an agreement for the coming 3-5 years.
Minimum wages are not enforced by government. They are enforced by the unions by bringing employers to court and making them pay.
EU crushed this system....... and then turned around and approved it in 2015.


Dennis CA may have a good point!

 

[Wuffles]

[Simply that their economy is so dire that the nurses and doctors can't get any jobs.

A huge number of medical staff come to work in the UK, not because the money is better, but to increase their experience and expertise. They'll often then return back to their home countries to practice what they've learnt.
In same way a lot of English doctors spend time working overseas to learn specialist techniques and return here with added knowledge.

When you say 'huge' do you have any numbers ?

Careful how you use figures of speech around Roger, might make you appear emotive and bigoted.

...It's this sloppy bigoted use of English that messes up these threads. Words like "a large number" ...no .... define 'large'..."a number" is sufficient.."a large number" is emotive and bigoted.

 

[Rhossydd]

When you say 'huge' do you have any numbers ?

Obviously no absolute numbers as I don't think that data is ever collected.
I've worked in hospitals, know people who work in the NHS and been a patient; Talk to them and ask them. They'll often tell you that they're here for the better opportunities to further their careers and return home better qualified.
It's far, far more complex than they're just here for the money.

 

[morfa]

That does raise some interesting questions. For example, why are we incapable of training enough of our own medical staff? What gives us the right to go about other countries poaching their trained (presumably at great expense) best people? Do Spain, Ireland and Greece have a surplus of good medics they don't need, or are we taking staff their populations really could do with? If they have trained a surplus, how come they're so much better at training enough people than we are?

1 - Complex and not easily answered properly, but in a couple of lines, it's hard just to get in to a Doctor course (excellent grades and work experience needed) and expensive (5 years degree) at a cost of £9k per year plus standard uni expenses. After 2008 some training positions were cut and it takes a long time to train a nurse or doctor. The number of complex (eg heart problem and diabetic) patients needing the NHS is increasing, especially older patients, though the increase in obese people in the population in general doesn't help, so more Nurses/Doctors are needed. Then also there's a portion of Drs (not massive) who come through the training, qualify but can't cope with the workload / don't want to cope with the workload, so leave. Finally where we need doctors (and nurses) are often the places where it's hardest so people either don't go into it or don't stay there. eg A&E, Nights (especially Nights).

2 - No right, but they come here cause the money is good.

3 - They don't have a surplus. Other countries have the same problem as we do, however we pay well and the NHS is highly regarded internationally. Also the UK standard of living is high compared to other countries. Which is why there's a reasonable number of Filipino Nurses in the NHS.

4 - No surplus, we're stealing their medical staff.

 

[Rhossydd]

I don't know first hand what Phil and Heimlaga experience, but I accept they are closer to it than I.

Really ?
Phil.p & heimlaga against jacob ?
A disabled retiree living in a deprived area at the fringe of the UK and someone living in a remote part of rural Finland who talks about the Mafia ?
As opposed to someone working in the UK who actually travels around the UK, Europe and talks to people, someone who is actually identifiable and prepared to put his real name to what he says.

I know who I trust.

 

[Jacob]

I don't know first hand what Phil and Heimlaga experience, but I accept they are closer to it than I.

Really ?
Phil.p & heimlaga against jacob ?
A disabled retiree living in a deprived area at the fringe of the UK and someone living in a remote part of rural Finland who talks about the Mafia ?
As opposed to someone working in the UK who actually travels around the UK, Europe and talks to people, someone who is actually identifiable and prepared to put his real name to what he says.

I know who I trust.

Thanks for that Rhossydd!
Actually my "dusty little hamlet" (Benchwayze) is distinctly post industrial and has a lot in common with Cornwall. It was tin there, here was lead, limestone, fluorspar and coal not far away. The industrial revolution started about a mile away with Arkwrights mill. Sheffield is just up the road. A large part of the population of Britain lives within 50 miles or so. It does seem a very central place, historically and currently.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

That's quite enough Rhossydd! No more personal stuff. Please apologise, in this thread to Phil for use of the word "disabled" in your sentence. It is NOT a derogatory term. And don't patronise me by suggesting there is no explicit insult. The insult is clearly implied. I will NOT ACCEPT misuse of the term disabled and it's got nothing to do with political correctness. Apologise or start your months ban.

To everybody else, I will appeal for the last time for reasonable, respectful behaviour, if it's beyond reach then I'll close the thread. Which would be a shame because it's actually an interesting debate.

 

[finneyb]

That does raise some interesting questions. For example, why are we incapable of training enough of our own medical staff? What gives us the right to go about other countries poaching their trained (presumably at great expense) best people? Do Spain, Ireland and Greece have a surplus of good medics they don't need, or are we taking staff their populations really could do with? If they have trained a surplus, how come they're so much better at training enough people than we are?

1 - Complex and not easily answered properly, but in a couple of lines, it's hard just to get in to a Doctor course (excellent grades and work experience needed) and expensive (5 years degree) at a cost of £9k per year plus standard uni expenses. After 2008 some training positions were cut and it takes a long time to train a nurse or doctor. The number of complex (eg heart problem and diabetic) patients needing the NHS is increasing, especially older patients, though the increase in obese people in the population in general doesn't help, so more Nurses/Doctors are needed. Then also there's a portion of Drs (not massive) who come through the training, qualify but can't cope with the workload / don't want to cope with the workload, so leave. Finally where we need doctors (and nurses) are often the places where it's hardest so people either don't go into it or don't stay there. eg A&E, Nights (especially Nights).

2 - No right, but they come here cause the money is good.

3 - They don't have a surplus. Other countries have the same problem as we do, however we pay well and the NHS is highly regarded internationally. Also the UK standard of living is high compared to other countries. Which is why there's a reasonable number of Filipino Nurses in the NHS.

4 - No surplus, we're stealing their medical staff.

The reason we don't have enough doctors is because the numbers of UK medical school intakes are controlled purposely to keep the numbers low to ensure that most will eventually get a Consultant/GP post. The non-UK medic filling the lower grade/training posts and then returns home, also reduces the competition for the Consultant/GP posts. You can trust the Medical profession to look after itself - they are experts at it.

There was the same control over the training of nurses, until recently.

Brian

 

[Rhossydd]

That's quite enough Rhossydd! No more personal stuff. Please apologise, in this thread to Phil for use of the word "disabled" in your sentence. It is NOT a derogatory term.

It's simply factual and as he describes himself.