Toothed blades for bevel-down planes

[Paul Chapman]

It may be that stuff is catching on the, uh, back side of the mouth. (Is that still part of the mouth? The part that's underneath the blade?)

Yes, that's what I meant. I was getting the shavings travelling up the grooves and lodging under the cap iron. Your plane, being a bevel-up, is upside down compared with mine, so I wonder whether in your case the shavings are travelling up the grooves (which are on the underside of your blade) and getting trapped by the back of the mouth. That's the only guess I can make as to what's happening in your case.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Paul Chapman]

Just another thought, Adrian. Rob Lee of Lee Valley sometimes posts on here. If you don't manage to solve the problem, you could always PM Rob and see whether he or any of his people at Lee Valley have any suggestions to sort out the clogging problem.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[swagman]

Yes in the south of France (some time ago now) this wood was also common on planes. Since this oak is around the mediterranean see.
This wood is reputed to be a good one for wooden planes.
And yes Goldenberg is an old French maker. But you can still find some new tools with this brand. Sadly not as good as old ones ... but that's an other story. (quote)

Hi. Attached is a block plane made by the French plane maker Goldenberg.

The plane as well as the blade are stamped with the makers name, including his interesting "eye" symbol.

Also stamped on the front of the plane are the words (vrai cormier), which translated means (true cormier). Cormier Wood (Pyrus Sorbus) was the preferred timber used by Goldenberg, for his best hand planes.

regards swagman.

 

[adrian]

So does that French plane have a toothed blade?

Lee Valley has suggested that the rust preventative that they smear on the blade might make the grooves sticky. I admit that I didn't try to thoroughly clean out the grooves when I was cleaning the anti-rust gunk off the blade. So I'll give that a try.

 

[swagman]

So does that French plane have a toothed blade?

Lee Valley has suggested that the rust preventative that they smear on the blade might make the grooves sticky. I admit that I didn't try to thoroughly clean out the grooves when I was cleaning the anti-rust gunk off the blade. So I'll give that a try.

Hi adrian. No. The plane is not fitted with a toothing blade. This response relates to graweens information about goldenberg planes, and the type of wood used.

swagman.

 

[swagman]

It may be that stuff is catching on the, uh, back side of the mouth. (Is that still part of the mouth? The part that's underneath the blade?) I can't exactly move that back. But I'm not sure that the back side of the mouth is really playing a role either. This clogging is most problematic when the clogs are right up near the edge.

My problem sounds different than yours. As I understand, you were getting stuff lodging under the cap iron. I'm getting stuff lodged inside the grooves on the blade itself. Since shavings wouldn't ordinarily travel underneath the blade I'm not sure where exactly the clogging material comes from.

When I saw the Deneb video it did not appear that he had any clogging issues.

Adrian. I have never come across a bevel up toothing plane. My only recommendation without knowing any details about the plane you have is to try using it with the blade bevel facing down. The location of the mouth opening will be a critical factor.

Hope it helps. swagman

 

[Paul Chapman]

Lee Valley has suggested that the rust preventative that they smear on the blade might make the grooves sticky. I admit that I didn't try to thoroughly clean out the grooves when I was cleaning the anti-rust gunk off the blade.

Yes, that sounds like the most likely cause and it would also explain why you have had difficulty cleaning the clogged shavings away.

Let's know if it works.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Karl]

Lee Valley has suggested that the rust preventative that they smear on the blade might make the grooves sticky. I admit that I didn't try to thoroughly clean out the grooves when I was cleaning the anti-rust gunk off the blade.

Yes, that sounds like the most likely cause and it would also explain why you have had difficulty cleaning the clogged shavings away.

Let's know if it works.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

Aha - I have the same problem with a toothed blade in my LV BUS (not the blade you got me Paul - that's in the Philly Jack - do I have a toothed blade problem ????). I never cleaned it up before using it either - will give it a go.

Cheers

Karl

 

[Paul Chapman]

do I have a toothed blade problem ????

No, you're OK Karl, you can never have too many toothed blades 8) :lol:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[adrian]

I tried cleaning out the grooves with alcohol as recommended. I didn't notice that the cleaning process had any effect. (In other words, I didn't see gunk in there that was removed by cleaning.)

I put the blade back in service and still find that I have clogging problems.

Here's a picture after a minute or so of planing.

[/img]

 

[Paul Chapman]

Hi Adrian,

That's exactly the same sort of problem I was getting with my bevel-down blade, but with the shavings getting trapped between the top of the blade and the cap iron, until I solved it by grinding the end of the cap iron to make it shorter. But that's no help to you.

All I can suggest is that you PM Rob Lee with a copy of the picture and see what else he and his people can suggest.

Hope you get it sorted because toothed blades really are very good - honest.......

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[adrian]

Adrian. I have never come across a bevel up toothing plane. My only recommendation without knowing any details about the plane you have is to try using it with the blade bevel facing down. The location of the mouth opening will be a critical factor.

The blade is a bevel up blade for a bevel up plane bedded at 12 degrees. I don't have a plane that I could fit this blade in bevel down. If I flipped the blade over in the plane I've got I'd have a 12 degree cutting angle

 

[swagman]

I tried cleaning out the grooves with alcohol as recommended. I didn't notice that the cleaning process had any effect. (In other words, I didn't see gunk in there that was removed by cleaning.)

I put the blade back in service and still find that I have clogging problems.

Here's a picture after a minute or so of planing.

[/img]

Hi Adrian. The photo makes a big difference in understanding the problem you have. With respect, this is a design disaster. With the grooved blade bedded at 12 degrees, and BU, the shavings will continue to escape through the gaps along the cutting edge. The back of the mouth will then catch these shavings,causing the build up problem you are experiencing.

The only thing you can do is try and get your money back, or keep it and replace the blade with a normal BU type.

regards swagman.

Paul. Your spot on with the cap iron. If its set too close on a grooved blade, it will trap the shavings.

 

[adrian]

You're saying that you think a bevel up toothed blade is an inherently flawed concept? I wonder then why Veritas and Lie Nielsen sell them--they usually think their designs through reasonably well. Paul said he had to grind back his chip breaker, so it sounds like the bevel down configuration has its own pitfalls.

It's not obvious to me why the chips end up going into the grooves. I mean, shouldn't they go up onto the top of the blade?

I have a normal blade for the plane in the picture. I just fitted it with the toothed blade for dealing with the troublesome grain. At Lee Valley's direction I cleaned the grooves aggressively with a brass brush, and mineral spirits. It's possible it's clogging less now than earlier, but clogging hasn't been completely eliminated.

 

[swagman]

You're saying that you think a bevel up toothed blade is an inherently flawed concept? I wonder then why Veritas and Lie Nielsen sell them--they usually think their designs through reasonably well. Paul said he had to grind back his chip breaker, so it sounds like the bevel down configuration has its own pitfalls.

It's not obvious to me why the chips end up going into the grooves. I mean, shouldn't they go up onto the top of the blade?

I have a normal blade for the plane in the picture. I just fitted it with the toothed blade for dealing with the troublesome grain. At Lee Valley's direction I cleaned the grooves aggressively with a brass brush, and mineral spirits. It's possible it's clogging less now than earlier, but clogging hasn't been completely eliminated.

Hi Adrian. Try grinding a higher cutting angle on your toothing blade. Just grind the new angle up to the bottom line of the grooves, hone the edge and give it a go. This may help resolve the problem you have.

regards swagman.

 

[adrian]

The blade came with a 38 degree bevel and I honed it a bit higher than that up to the grooves and finished off with a microbevel probably at 40.

Would you recommend going higher still?


Here are pictures showing the improved result I got after cleaning out the grooves with a wire brush. Or maybe the difference has to do with the condition of the workpiece. I don't know. The clogging is reduced, but not eliminated from my earlier picture. I was also able to plane much longer before it appeared to be a problem.

 

[MIGNAL]

I know the mouth is open but if you can set it even wider it just might improve things a touch. Just a thought.

 

[swagman]

The blade came with a 38 degree bevel and I honed it a bit higher than that up to the grooves and finished off with a microbevel probably at 40.

Would you recommend going higher still?


Here are pictures showing the improved result I got after cleaning out the grooves with a wire brush. Or maybe the difference has to do with the condition of the workpiece. I don't know. The clogging is reduced, but not eliminated from my earlier picture. I was also able to plane much longer before it appeared to be a problem.

Hi Adrian. Add another 10 degrees to your main bevel and hone till sharp.
If this improves the performance of your blade you know your on the right track.

If that's an adjustable mouth opening on your plane, open it up further to help clear the wood fibres when in use. Unlike a conventional blade, a tight mouth opening is not a requirement when using a toothing blade.

If you can let me know the results from these changes I would appreciate it.

regards swagman.

 

[adrian]

Why would a higher angle make a difference? I can see an obvious downside to a higher angle: harder to push. So I'm curious before I do this why you think it would help?

 

[adrian]

I sent my pictures to Lee Valley and they report that my new improved state of operation with a few grooves clogging is normal.