Where did the knowledge about the capiron get lost?

[AndyT]

Here's another possible category.
Maybe some of us were aware of various strategies for coping with tearout, but had little or no experience of it being a big problem, as we only used well-behaved timbers where it didn't really happen. So if anyone did ask (and not many did) we kept quiet.

I try to give only advice based on experience and make it very clear if I give an answer based on theory or guesswork.

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

DW, I just put in a search for tear out on this site. The first result, from 2010, had 2 responses on the first page saying set the cap iron close . is-it-just-me-hand-plane-soft-pine-tearout-t46340.html
I haven't read the rest of the thread or looked at the other results.

You definitely did help some people learn about the effects of the cap iron on tearout as has been attested to by some of the posts on these threads. It was known before 2012 by many others. If you are really keen on helping people realise the potential of the cap iron stop going on about this 2012 thing and respond to threads where people are having problems with tear. Better still spend some of the time you are posting making more of the fantastic planes you make and post us WIPs
Paddy

 

[D_W]

There's a third person (both posts by the same one in that thread). I searched on the word tearout and found the incidence relatively hit and miss (for cap iron, though).

I've somewhat enjoyed this discussion, but my forum interest wanes a little just like everyone else's does, and it's the last one for me (I think I said that already).

No need to talk much more about plane making, by the way. I think it's something that doesn't garner much interest - truthfully, there's little response because it's deemed too fiddly to make planes of that type. I haven't decided how much more of it I'm going to do, because I don't have anywhere to go with the planes. The whole purpose of all of the double iron thing and figuring out what makes a good double iron plane tick was to be able to make a plane better than I can easily buy, and I'm at a stopping point. My planes are no better than a good english plane would've been when new and tight, but they are about as good as those. I've done that now with the jack and try plane, but I can't better a stanley 4. Not with infills and not with coffin smoothers. I would *love* to see more planemaking threads on here, of course, but many of the people who used to frequent forums and talk about planemaking have moved on.

This was Kees's thread, and I've hijacked it satisfying my curiosity. I'm glad at this point with where we are, when you say the cap iron works, you don't get debate as people did in those older threads.

I'll leave one parting shot, and this is one of the things that got me in the weeds with David Charlesworth, who I'd still have dinner with if he came to the states and western PA (I don't expect he'd stop by, for fear of frustration, but that's OK!!). ......And that is, that once the double iron is put into practice properly, i finally understand why vintage irons are the hardness they were. It's because they work wonderfully with the double iron set properly - despite seeming far too soft when not. The cap iron makes sharpness secondary to edge uniformity for a finish, and that is why I don't think modern irons are quite the improvement that everyone thinks they are. that would be an interesting topic in another thread, but somehow that always turns into a fight and I don't do much good to stop it from it!

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

Did you check out this recent thread. oliver-sparks-coffin-mitre-t93701.html

single iron, bevel up... Maybe not your thing but well worth watching Jim's video, lovely looking plane

 

[D_W]

I did. Thanks for reminding me, as I forgot to leave a comment on it, and it's certainly a comment worthy plane!

 

[JimB]

I suspect that part of the problem has been the rubbish churned out under famous manufacturers' names. This allowed the new plane makers to step in with their 'improvements' and their evangelical followers on the internet. Again the presence of precision measuring tools means that many people expect a definitive setting in thousands of an inch. Wood isn't like that.

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

Don't know so much if it is "rubbish", JimB, but more that some have to add some sizzle to continue sales growth, plus the fact that often there is more than one way to "skin a cat"!

The "cap iron" works, and I recall reading of adjustments far longer ago than 3, 4 or 5 years ("Planecraft", one of Graham Blackburn's books, just to name a couple). But, we've also had craftsmen (both professional & hobbyist) point out/develop other ways of taming wild grain, including thicker irons, different style of cap irons, higher bed angles, back bevels, and so forth (I suppose we can even toss in the variety of scrapers available-both vintage & new, and maybe even sandpaper).

What is the right way? I would contend whichever method is the one that works for you and the type of wood worked. Just as in the middle of a project, I'm not going to change honing methods, or go from a traditionally sharpened push saw to a Japanese pull saw, I doubt that I would risk tearout with smoothing by putting a 1/4" bevel up iron in my vintage #4 (even if it would fit and I could get it to adjust-and stated just because our friend Rob Lee had as an April Fool's joke some years back, an iron that was, what 1/2" thick?).

 

[JimB]

By rubbish Tony, I meant the poor quality planes put out by the major manufacturers.
As you say, what works works especially if a bloke's home from work and is trying to get an hour or so in the shed. A power sander must look attractive then.

 

[DennisCA]

I tried setting the cap iron reaaal close last night on my No.5 stanley and I think I must've gone too far. The plane was harder to use and would really work if you had it set sp light it barely took any wood off. I think I will go back to my previous setting where I had 1mm or so of the blade sticking out.

 

[D_W]

I tried setting the cap iron reaaal close last night on my No.5 stanley and I think I must've gone too far. The plane was harder to use and would really work if you had it set sp light it barely took any wood off. I think I will go back to my previous setting where I had 1mm or so of the blade sticking out.

You're closer to success than you think. Back the cap off a fine hair from where you had it, and you should see a shaving come straight up from the mouth.

Once you've successfully set the cap a couple of times, you'll be able to do it by sight without having to reset it any more often than you'd otherwise disassemble the plane for sharpening.

 

[swagman]

I tried setting the cap iron reaaal close last night on my No.5 stanley and I think I must've gone too far. The plane was harder to use and would really work if you had it set sp light it barely took any wood off. I think I will go back to my previous setting where I had 1mm or so of the blade sticking out.

The Australian Carpenter & Joiner, 5th Edition (1985) recommends 0.75mm clearance for fine shaving with a smoothing plane; & 3mm for a jack plane.

Stewie;

 

[DennisCA]

Thanks, good to have some figures to go after. I think I must've had less than .5 when I tried last night.

 

[iNewbie]

I tried setting the cap iron reaaal close last night on my No.5 stanley and I think I must've gone too far. The plane was harder to use and would really work if you had it set sp light it barely took any wood off. I think I will go back to my previous setting where I had 1mm or so of the blade sticking out.

You're closer to success than you think. Back the cap off a fine hair from where you had it, and you should see a shaving come straight up from the mouth.

Once you've successfully set the cap a couple of times, you'll be able to do it by sight without having to reset it any more often than you'd otherwise disassemble the plane for sharpening.

I may be reading this wrong - apologies if I am. Is your view of where to set it different to Warren Mickley's, Dave?

I'm reading as you having one setting where as he seems to vary his: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread. ... ost2489122

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

I tried setting the cap iron reaaal close last night on my No.5 stanley and I think I must've gone too far. The plane was harder to use and would really work if you had it set sp light it barely took any wood off. I think I will go back to my previous setting where I had 1mm or so of the blade sticking out.

The Australian Carpenter & Joiner, 5th Edition (1985) recommends 0.75mm clearance for fine shaving with a smoothing plane; & 3mm for a jack plane.

Stewie;

The fine shaving setting of 0.75mm is far too large. For Australian hardwoods, I find 0.3 - 0.5 to be a working distance. Beyond 0.6 you may as well set the chipbreaker at 3mm.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[D_W]

Thanks, good to have some figures to go after. I think I must've had less than .5 when I tried last night.

You'll need something around a hundredth of an inch, but don't think too hard about measurements. Set it close as you did, and then back it off a smidge and try the plane again. If not enough, back it off a smidge again. The distance depends on the thickness of the largest shaving you want to take (but you'll likely come up with one practical set for a smooth plane will allow a shaving up to about 4 thousandth thickness or so before the plane becomes hard to push).

Earlier in this post I suggested that if you have tearout, the cap isn't close enough. if the plane bulls you around and doesn't take a cut, then it's too close. Somewhere in between is what you want, and it's easier to get than it would seem at first.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Thanks, good to have some figures to go after. I think I must've had less than .5 when I tried last night.

Hi Dennis

The distance may be fine. But what is the angle of the chipbreaker at the leading edge? Is it a standard Stanley - approximately 45 degrees? That should do. Check the angle is about 45-50 degrees. If the angle is around 30 degrees, as on LN and LV chipbreakers, it will not work. The angle at the leading edge needs to be raised with a microbevel.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Beau]

I tried setting the cap iron reaaal close last night on my No.5 stanley and I think I must've gone too far. The plane was harder to use and would really work if you had it set sp light it barely took any wood off. I think I will go back to my previous setting where I had 1mm or so of the blade sticking out.

Just a thought but have you relieved the mouth on the plane? If not the shaving is likely to have nowhere to go presuming the mouth is set small as well.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

I tried setting the cap iron reaaal close last night on my No.5 stanley and I think I must've gone too far. The plane was harder to use and would really work if you had it set sp light it barely took any wood off. I think I will go back to my previous setting where I had 1mm or so of the blade sticking out.

Just a thought but have you relieved the mouth on the plane? If not the shaving is likely to have nowhere to go presuming the mouth is set small as well.

That is not necessary. Just pull the frog back a little and open the mouth.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Beau]

I tried setting the cap iron reaaal close last night on my No.5 stanley and I think I must've gone too far. The plane was harder to use and would really work if you had it set sp light it barely took any wood off. I think I will go back to my previous setting where I had 1mm or so of the blade sticking out.

Just a thought but have you relieved the mouth on the plane? If not the shaving is likely to have nowhere to go presuming the mouth is set small as well.

That is not necessary. Just pull the frog back a little and open the mouth.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Realy? Always thought the mouth size was every bit as important as a close capiron on difficult timbers.

 

[D_W]

Realy? Always thought the mouth size was every bit as important as a close capiron on difficult timbers.

If you're going to use the cap iron as well as possible, you want to get the mouth out of the way. It's less effective than the cap iron, and only necessary in the absence of the cap iron. The critical limit of the mouth's size once the cap iron is set properly is only to make the mouth not so large that it literally gets stuck on the end of a board and pries a chunk off like a bottle cap opener.