To Guard or not to guard

[Benchwayze]

Hi Scrit,

I agree with what you say, re safety. But, if you never remove the guard from a table-saw, you lose much of the saw's versatility.
The solution is clear.

First of all, always ensure the saw is properly set-up, thus reducing the possibility of kick-back, with or without a guard.

When cutting without a guard:
Never expose any more of the blade above the work than is absolutely necessary.
Use hold downs or proper jigs, when jointing.
Don't take too big a bite at the work in one go.
Don't leave the saw running, unattended, above or below the table.
Don't leave the blade projecting above the table, when you are not using it, unless you put the guard back on.
Don't put your fingers near the blade.
Don't put your fingers near the blade.
Don't put your fingers near the blade.
Don't put your fingers near the blade.

I am not being flippant Scrit, but I can't see the point of keeping a circular saw just for ripping from rough, ripping to width, and cross-cutting boards. Which is about all you can do with a guard fitted.

Take care
John

 

[LyNx]

Don't put your fingers near the blade.
Don't put your fingers near the blade.
Don't put your fingers near the blade.
Don't put your fingers near the blade.

but then your hand slips and heads towards the blade, glad the guard was on to stop it :x

I can't see the point of keeping a circular saw just for ripping from rough, ripping to width, and cross-cutting boards

Isn't this the main functions of a table saw?

I honestly think you may change your mind once you come into contact with a spinning blade :wink:

 

[Alf]

...I can't see the point of keeping a circular saw just for ripping from rough, ripping to width, and cross-cutting boards. Which is about all you can do with a guard fitted.

Neither can I. Which is why I've never subscribed to the "tablesaw is the centrepiece of the workshop" theory. It's a space-hogging hunk with very limited safe use, IMO.

Cheers, Alf

Having lit the blue touch paper I shall retire and see where this has gone by the morning... :twisted:

 

[Scrit]

I can't see the point of keeping a circular saw just for ripping from rough, ripping to width, and cross-cutting boards. Which is about all you can do with a guard fitted.

In point of fact if you look at the history of the circular saw it's original purpose was solely to straight rip materials. The mitre fence and sliding carraige for crosscutting came about in the early 20th Century although so-called "variety saws" with a tilting arbor instead of a tilting rip fence are a little later, appearing around about the end of WWI (with the introduction of built-in motors - tilting arbors weren't possible on flat belt drive machines). With the advent of these "variety saws" it became possible to crosscut, trench (dado), rip, bevel edge and chamfer materials on a single machine, the table saw, for the first time (the term "variety" refers to the variety of work the saw could undertake). When in 1929 the Board of Trade introduced the requirement to fit riving knives and crown guards to all rip saws or saws capable of ripping the manufacturers needed to come up with a solution to the requirement to rip, cut housings with a trenching (dado) head and crosscut and they came up with this type of guard:

This machine, a variety or dimjension saw, was actually built in 1951, but the design first appeared somewhere around 1931, complete with that crown guard (and if I can ever get round to rebuilding it will be a nice machine......). Notice that the crown guard doesn't sit on top of the riving knife/splitter but instead is independently suspended. At least one of our members has actually built an overhead crown guard of a different design (and I'm sorry I can't find the recent reference ), not disimilar to this. Some companies such as Kity and Scheppach actually supply what they refer to as a "SUVA overhead guard" for many of their saws.

The concept of mounting a crown guard on the splitter really dates back to the widespread introduction of smaller low-cost table saws such as the Unisaw in the USA (early 1930s, although they didn'yt actually have any guard to start with) and the Bursgreen lightweight saws (such as the MY) in the UK (mid 1930s) and was purely a cost cutting measure. Interestingly I've seen Wadkin literature from the late 1950s which shows Shaw guards mounted on an Wadkin AGS with a stacked saw dado head in place. Sorry for the history lesson, but I was trying to explain how we got here

So, if you need to remove a guard the question should always be why? For your own well-being it is probably a good idea to take a moment to think it through and try to come up with a safer solution, after all designers put guards on machines for a reason! I accept that there are some processes which cannot be performed without removing the guards - in my case it is splitting off box tops from pre-made boxes, a rarely performed procedure but one which cannot be performed with a crown guard in place. But that really is a rare instance and I'd say most removal of safety equipment is down to lazy mindedness or lack of knowledge. There is rarely a case to remove guards.

The question has therefore to be, just what do you require of a table saw outside of sawing - the machine wasn't designed to cut tenons, or machine cornice mouldings, or machine housings (dados), or raise panels safely. There are other methods for doing all of those tasks much more safely and many of the American jigs are extremely iffy in safety terms. It's a bit like your saloon car isn't designed to go Rallycrossing........

If you think I'm alone in this then you'd be surprised to learn that the same mantra is repeated on vocational woodworking courses across Europe, let alone the professional ones.

Scrit

 

[caretaker]

As I am new to woodworking and am concerned about the safety of my fingers on my table saw, would there be other ways to guard them from the blade, say a moving sledge, and over the work a see through plastic cover.
perhaps the guard that is used now is out of date and needs updating.
I must admit I now do my mortice and tenon joints with the router and a chisel, just got to get the hang of sharpening it.
Now on section eleven (conservatory).

 

[seaco]

So, if you need to remove a guard the question should always be why? The question has therefore to be, just what do you require of a table saw outside of sawing - the machine wasn't designed to cut tenons, or machine cornice mouldings, or machine housings (dados), or raise panels safely.
Scrit

No I agree it wasn't designed to but being as it does and does a fine job of it I for one and I'm sure many others will always use our saws to to their fullest extent and that means not just ripping...

 

[gidon]

I find the router table a lot more tricky with reference to guarding. On the table saw all the safety features are in place - yes you can take off the guard but you're advised not to.
However the average woodworker builds a router table, slings a very powerful router in and does all sorts of crazy things with it that they are told they shouldn't do on a table saw thinking they are safe to do them on the router table. But often they are not - or need careful guarding (which can often be tricky). And the physics of router tables are much more confusing than table saws. Feeding against the rotation of the cutter is not as intuitive as most books or manuals make out - it takes some thought. And a 2000W router has a scary amount of torque.
Are router tables used in commercial shops - if so are there any guidelines?
Cheers
Gidon

 

[johnnyb]

i am with gidon on this. routers in tables can be very scary. i regularly seem to have near misses on router tables of some sort. now i never use them for anything other tnan there obvious uses. large cutters no, no, no.

 

[Scrit]

(I).... am concerned about the safety of my fingers on my table saw, would there be other ways to guard them from the blade, say a moving sledge, and over the work a see through plastic cover. Perhaps the guard that is used now is out of date and needs updating.

In commercial terms the introduction of the sliding carraige panel saw with a SUVA overhead crown guard has pretty much addressed a lot of the safety concerns and this type of saw in the form of MiniMax, Felder, Hamer, Lurem-Metabo, Rojek, Ixes, etc has now reached the upper end of the hobby market. The Chinese/Taiwanese/Americans on the other hand seem to be driven solely by cost - and that's never positive for safety IMHO. BTW, non of this was new technology, as almost all the elements were in place in that dimension saw design I showed earlier in the thread - a design of the 1930s (and not unique as every major British and American manufacturer produced similar models) - so I don't think there is any need to redesign anything, just a need for a greater appreciation of what the equipment's safe limitations, how to extend them by the sensible use of well-desoigned jigs and maybe a bit of quiet pressure on the manufacturers to be more safety concious (I hope)

However the average woodworker builds a router table, slings a very powerful router in and does all sorts of crazy things with it that they are told they shouldn't do on a table saw thinking they are safe to do them on the router table. But often they are not - or need careful guarding (which can often be tricky).

Surely, though, this is the same old problem - lack of understanding? Most safety engineers work on the assumption that if you can see a cutter it's a potential danger whereas the average woodworker seems intuitively to distrust what he measures and sets (fences, that is) and insist on seeing the cutting process working. Let's hope they never make cheap enough home laser woodworking kits or there'll be more than a few people performing unintended DIY laser eye surgery :roll:

And the physics of router tables are much more confusing than table saws. Feeding against the rotation of the cutter is not as intuitive as most books or manuals make out - it takes some thought. And a 2000W router has a scary amount of torque.

But you're actually feeding against the cutting action on just about everything you use in a woodworking shop - radial arm saw, spindle moulder, table saw, planer, router table, thicknesser, etc all feed against the cut. The problem comes in understanding which direction the cutter is rotating in and then in remembering that the cutter needs to be rotating in such a way that the work is automatically pushed into the fence and back at the operator. To that end in trade shops you'll frequently find dirty big arrows drawn on machinery in black chinagraph

Are router tables used in commercial shops - if so are there any guidelines?

You do seem them from time to time, although in the main most trade shops starting out with a router table tend to move to a spindle moulder pretty quickly as the spindle is cheaper to run (tooling costs), makes a smoother cut, takes a bigger cut (making things like door-size M&Ts a reality), in a single pass, is quieter, etc. In terms of use, though, a router table has to be treated the same as a spindle moulder as they are, in effect, the same. So the HSE guidelines are these. BTW these HSE woodworking fact sheets aren't nanny state missives, but actually do contain a lot of genuinely useful information

I always find the biggest problems occurring when doing jobs where it is necessary to switch between the spindle moulder (fed from the right), to a pin router with fence or with a guide pin and templet (fed from left) and back again. In that case there is a potential danger of forgetting what you're working on and feeding from the wrong side unless you are paying attention.

... now I never use them for anything other than there obvious uses. Large cutters no, no, no.

Oddly enough I'm perfectly at home running 200mm to 250mm diameter panel raisers on the spindle moulder and I'm even OK with ring fence work (bonnet and ring) which used to give me the willies, but then one of the things I did learn was that you can make things a lot less fraught by removing as much waste as possible on the bandsaw (for curved work) or by hogging away with a rebate cutter (large panels, etc). Reducing the amount of material your cutter gas to remove also increases the life of the tips. This doesn't mean that I'm blasée - I still check and double check tooling and guarding every time I set-up a job. What works on the spindle moulder works just as well on the router table I'd say

Scrit

 

[gidon]

Thanks for the information and link Scrit.

But you're actually feeding against the cutting action on just about everything you use in a woodworking shop - radial arm saw, spindle moulder, table saw, planer, router table, thicknesser, etc all feed against the cut. The problem comes in understanding which direction the cutter is rotating in and then in remembering that the cutter needs to be rotating in such a way that the work is automatically pushed into the fence and back at the operator. To that end in trade shops you'll frequently find dirty big arrows drawn on machinery in black chinagraph

I get the feed against cuttting action bit. It's just I think it's much easier to get it wrong on the router table than anything else. Because you're basically exposed to both directions. A typical example is feeding from right to left but trapping wood to be cut in between fence and bit - very very dangerous - especially if you're taking a heavyish cut. But because you can also get the same effect widening a dado the wrong way not always so obvious - even if you understand what you are doing.

I always find the biggest problems occurring when doing jobs where it is necessary to switch between the spindle moulder (fed from the right), to a pin router with fence or with a guide pin and templet (fed from left) and back again. In that case there is a potential danger of forgetting what you're working on and feeding from the wrong side unless you are paying attention.

This is really my point - you can understand what you doing on a router table and still makes make mistakes - that's probably why I'm more wary of the router table than any of my other machines.

Cheers

Gidon

 

[Sgian Dubh]

I agree with what you say, re safety. But, if you never remove the guard from a table-saw, you lose much of the saw's versatility.

The solution is clear. Take care, John

I tend to disagree with your general analysis and solutions, John.

Since I started in the woodwhacking game back in the early seventies I've always been aware of an alternative to your "The solution is clear."

It goes like this:

If you need to remove the guard from a machine to do the job you want to do, then you've almost certainly got the wrong approach. You need to find either, 1, the right machine for the work, or 2, rethink the process you're trying to do so that you don't need to remove the guards.

Admittedly my attitude to safety is probably coloured by my training, past experience, my job (as a teacher of furniture making) and that I've always worked in fully kitted workshops. For instance I can turn to two large 3 phase surface planers, two large thicknessers, various saws such as rip, sliding table and radial arm saws, through a plethora of kit all the way up to CNC equipment.

On the other hand I worked for many years in the US as a designer and furniture maker. I saw first hand the risks that US woodworkers expose themselves to through lack of guarding, and particularly the exposed blades of their saws.

I saw the accidents or the results of accidents that happened to several of these woodworkers. In just about every case the biggest contributory factor was the lack of guarding. Therefore I say you are correct to note that a table saw can be used for a lot of jobs it's not designed for, using the machine this way truly is fraught with danger.

In the end, at the amateur level anyway, a woodworker can choose to use any woodworking machine any way they want. The problem I've come across with this over the decades is that too many amateurs unfortunately flounder around mostly in the dark when it comes to a real working knowledge of the kit they're working with. A lack of training is the primary cause from what I can tell. This puts them at a serious disadvantage when judging how safe an operation actually is. Slainte.

 

[woodbloke]

...I can't see the point of keeping a circular saw just for ripping from rough, ripping to width, and cross-cutting boards. Which is about all you can do with a guard fitted.

Neither can I. Which is why I've never subscribed to the "tablesaw is the centrepiece of the workshop" theory. It's a space-hogging hunk with very limited safe use, IMO.

Cheers, Alf

Having lit the blue touch paper I shall retire and see where this has gone by the morning... :twisted:

I agree totally with all that Scrit and Sgian Dubh have said on this one, guards are there for a very good reason and are not removed....period. In my short time in a professional shop, no one ever questioned the need to remove guarding, we simply chose a machine or process where the job could be done adequately without recourse to removing the guard and besides if someone had even suggested taking off a guard to do a job, the boss would have gone into meltdown.
The main saw in the shop was a very large panel saw which was used for just about everything that needed a super accurate cut such as dimension sawing repetitive stock to length, compound cuts, cutting full sized sheets of mdf and by working off two pins in a board G-cramped to the sliding table, we could cut the joints for curved lipping to go round a circular or elliptical table top....it was the first machine that anyone jumped on to prepare material to size. Rough cutting of boards was done on a dedicated separate bench saw with a large rip blade.
Alf, if you've never worked in a professional shop you won't know just how versatile a panel saw is with a large sliding table when its correctly set up.
Part of the problem in the amateur shop is that the table saw tends to be used as a 'jack of all trades' to rough cut large lumps of timber and to make accurate cuts, which I find difficult to reconcile so with my little Kity I have it set up to only cut stock which has been dimensioned square and true, cutting large lumps is done by hand or with a hand held circular saw.
On a different tack, last weekend Philly let me have a look at a Sam Maloof DVD. As I remarked to Phill later on, his workshop practices :shock: , on the table saw and bandsaw would be enough to put Scrit on a coronary ward. - Rob

 

[cumbrian]

I would love to see a section dedicated to safety tips. (Sorry mods, I know you're busy people with lives!!)

Yes, there's a load of good information on the forum, but it's scattered. And good information only serves a purpose if you actually know you need to look for it........

To explain: I'm new into this game. A while ago I decided I needed a table saw for all sorts of good(?) reasons. I knew NOTHING about these things. Because I'm sad enough to quite enjoy hours searching around for info when I'm considering something new, I hit on this forum. I also discovered The Table Saw Book.
To repeat, I knew nothing; it was pretty obvious that a table saw has a very sharp and scary whirly thing that cuts fingers off, so don't put fingers near that bit, problem solved.
Then I just happened upon the notion of kickback......... Now I might be exceptionally thick, but I don't think the average novice would know about this little feature of using a table saw, and I'm damn sure that Tango Man at B&Q wouldn't be gently taking him to one side to whisper in his ear. It might get a mention in the instructions - I don't know, because in the end I realised I didn't really need a table saw - but it would probably be buried in amongst the "wear ear and eye protection don't operate electrical machinery whilst standing in a bucket of water drinking alcohol etc etc" stuff and get slung aside in the desire to use the new toy to knock up a couple of kitchen units before teatime.

Sorry - I'm rambling a bit. The point is, you can only take sensible precautions when you know they're necessary, and by the time you find out what's necessary it might just be too late.............
I don't think there's a reasonable solution to the overall problem, but anyone hitting this forum is likely to have an interest in learning more, so if there was a suitable section - with a suitably interesting title, such as "Dangerous things to do with your table saw/bandsaw/planer etc etc" it would be a great help to those needing to progress from the "don't know they don't know " stage to the "know they don't know and need to find out :-k " stage.

Apologies if that's a hijack, it's just that this thread contains exactly the sort of stuff the novice (to a particular machine or task) needs.

 

[houtslager]

I have to put my 2 euro cents and confirm everthing what Scrit and SD put down here, with one EXCEPTION ! Scrit wrote here

dirty big arrows drawn on machinery in black chinagraph

sorry mate nearly every shop I've been into the other users STIll managed to ingnore the BLACK WARNINGS, so I went round and re did ALL the DIRECTION ARROWS in RED and UNDERLINED :? jeez some people should not even be given a screwdriver let alone let loose in a fully equipped wood shop.

HS in Oost Frieslad and still suffering

 

[Alf]

Rob, my comment was purely from the non-professional POV where space, budget and versatility all dictate. I wouldn't even begin to suggest what a pro shop should have as I wouldn't have a clue.

Cheers, Alf

 

[lugo35]

safety is down to you, all very well people one here moaning and posting greusome(rubbish spelling) picture but people dont learn untill its to late. i have had a surface planner tickle the ends of 2 fingers. enough for me

 

[Woody Alan]

Cumbrian

I agree with all that you have said about the safety aspect. It's all very well to suggest that there are ways to safely do.. shall we say "unconventional" things with a piece of equipment and if you know what you are doing it's "safe" but how do you know if it's safe within your own personal confines and also know what the unknown risks are ( oxymoron?).
A personal example of this is the dado, (yeah I know... yawn yawn). I have a saw capable of taking the dado and even have a dado. I was making some shelving to put in the workshop and was looking forward to using it, got it all set up, sliding table ready to go and just couldn't bring myself to use it, I kept thinking of all the posts that have been made saying "is there a better/safer way". I had to answer yes, so then broke down the saw and spent the next hour making a jig for my router to cut "stopped dados". I have to say I was much happier doing it this way, got a more consistent depth of cut to the dado and it was stopped accurately. These are things I have learnt from this forum. As to your suggestion of a seperate safety info section I think it's an admirable idea but it I believe relies on the input of certain professionals to create it. Most of the safety stuff from my experience comes up as a (for the want of a better description) "neccessary challenge" to the inventiveness of more experienced hobbyists who are prepared to take an informed risk. The safety rules aren't built from spite but from bitter experience by, in the past "cannon fodder" (not derogatory) I don't think their hard fought experiences should be wasted.

So to recap after my waffle I think it's an excellent idea just needs the will to implement it. Perhaps a series of stickys in a safety section drawn from previous posts so if someone wants to try something then at least they have an informed approach.

Cheers Alan

 

[woodbloke]

Rob, my comment was purely from the non-professional POV where space, budget and versatility all dictate. I wouldn't even begin to suggest what a pro shop should have as I wouldn't have a clue.

Cheers, Alf

Alf - understood, and I wasn't having a go, but it's only when you see what a good saw will do that you realize that it's pretty much a 'must have' piece of kit in its own right, in my workshop anyway. But as had been said many, many times on the forum before, we all have our own way of operating within our own 'shops and what one person may find essential another will not and so we all do our own thing. The main thing is tho' that IMO, whatever machinery route we each choose to go down, that machinery is used in a safe way, which is the point that Scrit emphasizes time and again to the non-believers - Rob