The Sandpaper danger

[AndyT]

I've been meaning to ask this for ages - perhaps it was all debated years ago before I joined...

Rob (Woodbloke) says in his sig that "the most dangerous thing in a workshop is a bit of sandpaper," and Benchwayze commented recently that he doesn't allow it "within a mile" of his workshop.

I'd have thought there were plenty of more dangerous things - table saws, flammable solvents, sharp tools to drop on your foot etc, but as a serious question, what is the objection?

Is it about old-fashioned sandpaper/glasspaper leaving abrasive on the wooden surfaces and blunting tools? Is it about sloppy workmanship making components miss-shapen and not flat? What is the danger?

 

[ondablade]

No idea what Ron's thinking is, but my personal (but everyday rather than 'haute couture furniture/traditionalist') view is that:

1. Unless handled in a very disciplined and intelligent way it creates all sorts of dips and rounded edges and corners.

2. Even then the finish is not the same as a cut surface - it tends to be deader.

3. Quality flows from accurate making. Not from throwing something together, slapping filler all over it and then sanding it to death. There's lots of other types of finish that are at least as attractive as the high gloss we seem to have become hung up on.

4. I often wonder what happens to the grit that's lost from paper etc - re. the effect on edge tools.

5. Latest generation papers are getting damned expensive.

6. We already have more than enough health threatening dust around with machine tools, so while they are very time efficient the latest generation of large panel sanders/sanders designed to remove significant amounts of material bother me - especially when combined with frequently dodgy dust collection and filtration systems

Over to the more expert/traditionally oriented....

 

[JohnBrown]

The most dangerous thing in my workshop is me!

 

[TheTiddles]

It's more the ability of it to make a mess of something at the last minute.

I actually quite like sanding, if you use good paper and/or a decent machine it's great. However I've gone through veneers more that once. My sandpaper box is quartersawn ash with walnut inlaid double-dovetails and a 4-way matched walnut top that changes colour as you rotate it in the light as the grain switches... complete with an area I accidentally sanded through after almost 2 months of making it, hence the danger

aidan

 

[woodbloke]

Rob (Woodbloke) says in his sig that "the most dangerous thing in a workshop is a bit of sandpaper

I shall explain. I saw once in the trade a piece of very expensive furniture having it's final sanding. It was a piece being made for Linley so it was going to cost someone a small fortune. The material (as always) was an mdf substrate veneered with burr walnut and a box line, the burr walnut covering most of top and sides. The maker was hand sanding, trying to get that perfect finish to the burr and he made a couple of passes too many in one spot...and went through revealing a patch of nice sandy coloured mdf about the size of a 10p piece :shock: :shock:

Words were exchanged with the boss, but the job was effectively ruined.

Also, Linley insisted on a very sharp arris to all his work, one pass with a very worn out piece of 320g paper was all that was needed...two or three passes and the job was 'fubar'.

That's why a bit of sandpaper is the most dangerous thing in a workshop - Rob

 

[SammyQ]

Linley?? Royal Linley? I thought he made all his own pieces? Are you telling me he had four caribbean holidays a year an' didn't even make his own pieces? :shock: Sam

 

[woodbloke]

Linley?? Royal Linley? I thought he made all his own pieces? Are you telling me he had four caribbean holidays a year an' didn't even make his own pieces? :shock: Sam

Sammy, you jest :wink: and yes, the very same (met him twice and he bought us all a bottle of champers each one Christmas) He actually has a number of firms dotted around the country that make for him, the biggest one being at Robin Hood's bay I think, near Whiteby - Rob

 

[eoinsgaff]

Hmmm, who is this Linley character you speak of?

 

[Paul Chapman]

Hmmm, who is this Linley character you speak of?

Son of Lord Snowdon and Princess Margaret http://www.davidlinleyfurniture.com/about-david-linley

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[BradNaylor]

It was a piece being made for Linley so it was going to cost someone a small fortune. The material (as always) was an mdf substrate veneered with burr walnut and a box line, the burr walnut covering most of top and sides.

So Linley's furniture is all made from MDF then?

:lol:

 

[BradNaylor]

but the job was effectively ruined.

Also, Linley insisted on a very sharp arris to all his work, one pass with a very worn out piece of 320g paper was all that was needed...two or three passes and the job was 'fubar'.

I had to Google 'fubar' but surely 'beyond all repair' is a bit defeatist following such an accident. Couldn't you just sand the veneer off the one panel and redo it?

Or do I not understand fully the niceties of fine cabinetmaking?



:wink:

 

[Benchwayze]

Andy,

A 'number of years ago', I was handed the job of sanding half a dozen flush-doors that had been made for a well-known bank. Posh work in those days.

I was told to use the huge belt sander (the type with the sliding table under the belt and used with a wooden paddle, similar to a plasterer's float.)

Unfamiliarity with the machine caused me to round over the hardwood trim at the edges of the doors, rendering them useless for hanging. The lesson stayed with me, and when I read that Krenov never used sandpaper, I saw the wisdom of it, for me.

Perhaps I was overstating when I said 'never within a mile of my shop', but the little sandpaper I do have rarely sees the light of day. I just prefer the finish from a sharp smoother and the feel of the slight undulations that say, 'hand-finished'.

Regards
John

 

[OPJ]

With regards to sanding through veneer, you can do the same thing with a scraper... Plus, they'll burn your thumbs and create an arris sharp enough to cut you, if you're not careful! :wink:

 

[AndyT]

Thanks for all the replies - a lot of good sense and bitter experience.

I guess that as any project nears completion, there are processes where you have the chance to ruin good work. Freehand carving on a finished piece springs to mind.

Sanding seems so familiar and simple - every diy-er in the country must have a few sheets of sandpaper - but it too has the capacity to spoil what has been carefully done.

 

[SammyQ]

"Linley insisted on a very sharp arris"


Most appropriate thing I've ever seen posted about the a member of the Windsors (as they are NOW known)......

 

[ondablade]

Perhaps The problem with sandpaper is one of perceptions. It's a tool, and a largely manual tool at that - which places a premium on skills. Meaning that it can pipper up your work as easily as any other.

Yet the tendency is often to regard it as just a boring final finishing step, one that is basically a nothing that's often for this reason (but truth be told probably often because people perceive it as not being a worthwhile job and don't want to breathe the dust) offloaded on a junior.

So that while many do appreciate the need to handle it carefully and correctly, we often don't give it the care and attention it needs, and we certainly don't always accord it the respect of other tools....

 

[woodbloke]

but the job was effectively ruined.

Also, Linley insisted on a very sharp arris to all his work, one pass with a very worn out piece of 320g paper was all that was needed...two or three passes and the job was 'fubar'.

I had to Google 'fubar' but surely 'beyond all repair' is a bit defeatist following such an accident. Couldn't you just sand the veneer off the one panel and redo it?

Or do I not understand fully the niceties of fine cabinetmaking?



:wink:

Brad, this piece (chest of drawers thingy if I recollect) was fully finished and was due to go to be spayed that evening. It was just having it's final detail sanding before being shipped off in the van, so it was impossible to just re-do one panel (and it was the top that was damaged)
Most of Linley's stuff is mdf (cabinets anyway) covered with very expensive veneer. Solid timber is used where it's not appropriate to use mdf, but my guess is the 80% of the stuff you see that's got a Linners stamp on it is made from mdf - Rob

 

[Tim Nott]

Hmmm, who is this Linley character you speak of?

Son of Lord Snowdon and Princess Margaret http://www.davidlinleyfurniture.com/about-david-linley

Cheers :wink:

Paul

What ugly, pretentious and expensive stuff. Veneered MDF no less.

 

[AndyT]

... and no mention here of not using sandpaper!

http://www.davidlinleyfurniture.com/care-instructions

 

[jimi43]

I would have said MDF is FAR more dangerous than sandpaper in a workshop myself!



Jim