Sound containment in workshop

[Julesbarn]

Hi there and a happy creative new year to all.

I've read quite a few posts about sound proofing workshops, but this perhaps is a little different, hence the title "sound containment". I built mine 8 years ago, with 125mm of insulation in walls and roof, ply lined walls and plasterboard ceiling; so not a bad set up soundproofing wise for most power tools and TS, BS, lathe, drill press etc. My nearest neighbors house is perhaps 60m away, and no complaints yet! (I try to time using the PT when they're out ...i don't use it that much..blummin noisy old thing it is!)

BUT... I've recently got back into power carving and sculpting, which involves a lot of angle grinders with various arbortech products fitted. Unlike the odd bit of grinding and cutting metal i occasionally do, the carving involves fairly prolonged use of the grinders, and as you'll know, they aren't quiet like a smooth TS or cordless drill!

The shop walls are very well established and pretty much totally covered with benches,tools, jigs etc, so it would be an epic upheaval to pull it all apart and add more soundproofing material to the walls, so I'm unsure what to do..i really don't want to be a nuisance neighbour.
I considered a dedicated 'booth' within the workshop for power carving, but there's not really room for anything permanent, the WS is 5x10m and fairly full of stuff. I then considered a super heavy soundproofing 'curtain' of some sort, that could kind of wrap around my carving area and tie in with extra sound insulation on the ceiling above this area.(it would also stop the chips flying all over the place!) I would then be in an oblivious bubble of creativity wearing my respirator and ear defenders : )

I am seeking ideas of what materials would work best for a 'wrap around curtain', or reasons why it may not work, or..any other ideas/solutions anyone may have to make it nice and quiet outside whilst carving.

Thanks for letting me waffle on !
Cheers,

Jules

 

[NickN]

Your set up sounds much like mine except that I only have 50mm insulation - and my neighbour is much closer. Most of the time they've said they can't hear anything at all, and I make a point of using the louder machines in the day time only. The door to the shed is my 'weakest spot' and I have installed a heavy curtain to draw across inside there.

Have you stood 60m away from your workshop and asked someone to operate any of those machines, or asked someone else to listen? I wonder if there really may not be any issue at all and you might be being overly conscientious? That said I wish all neighbours could be so considerate - my next but one neighbour uses angle grinders in a car-port type area outside all day quite regularly, now that IS annoying!

 

[MikeG.]

60m, and a mini-grinder in an insulated shed? Forget it. Don't worry one iota. You'll make far more noise cutting your lawn.

 

[thetyreman]

soundproofing the proper way is extremely expensive, doors and windows are by far the weakest link, so I would start there, then again if no-one has complained yet, I wouldn't be that concerned.

 

[Julesbarn]

Nick,Yes, i think maybe I'm being over considerate. All my neighbours are lovely (i live in a little hamlet of mainly barn conversions n old cottages) we all help each other out but my nearest neighbour is a total bar steward and nobody likes him...he lets his grandson race around his field (right next to mine and my home) on a super noisy dirt bike and quad. We got the council involved and things are much better now. So, i guess i don't want to give him any reason to complain and find an excuse to start being a nuisance again. I love the peace of the countryside and nobody minds the regular sound of mowers,chainsaws, strimmers,tractors,horses,owls,sheep,farm machinery,dogs barking,crow scarers,mini diggers,etc etc...yes, it's so peaceful in rural devon !!! (but the fracking bike drove us and other neighbors mad....funny innit?!) I think it's the fact that the noise was just for fun,going round and round and round the field, unlike doing a necessary or useful task like cutting firewood or cutting grass.

Also, I'm starting to develop a small business as a woodworker, after accidentally becoming a builder for many years. I don't want to draw attention to myself,especially from him nxt door. I want to be discreet. Before building,(15+ years ago) i was a humble wood carver/artist and loved it, and I'm finding my passion again,kind of feeling my way, and am determined that nothing will stop me.

Back to the grinder noise: after i started this thread, i went into my workshop and felt a bit silly, cos i overlooked the fact that i have 2 big skylights in the roof, and one is directly above my carving area. They're thin corrugated plastic! (The roof is corrugated fibre cement)...so there's the weak spot sound wise! I shall double glaze,nay, triple glaze and that's sure to make a big improvement. Sometimes one can miss the blinkin obvious!
I will however fix carpet or similar to the big double doors and the little door as they too are a weak spot,having no proper insulation.

Thanks.. it's been nice to waffle.

All the best

Jules

 

[dkaardal]

Have you checked how loud the sound is outside of your shop? You could go the easy route and ask a friend to walk around your property while your carving away and give you feedback - though a better way is if you know someone who you'd trust with your tools and have them carve in your shop while you walk around and get a feel for the noise levels.

You could also buy a cheap noise/db metre and test the sound levels at various places while you work.

In my experience the best route is to talk to your neighbours - maybe not a great idea in your case, but I do know that in my old shop back home I'd take great pains to only use machines at certain times, and even stop using my carving mallets after around 8 or 9 at night, just in case. My shop was in the basement of my townhouse, and since all the houses were physically connected I was pretty worried about noise. I'd mentioned that to my neighbour once day and they looked at me funny and said they'd never hear anything from any of the other units. I had them walk around their house while I ran my bug dust collector, air cleaner, and made a bunch of heavy cuts on my table saw. Met back up to compare notes, and they'd heard nothing.

There was a downside though - after that I'd end up tinkering in the workshop until 2 am most nights!

If your neighbour is already known as the crotchety, I-hate-everyone sort then I guess you don't want to risk going that route. Which is pretty sad when all you want to do is be a good neighbour.


I feel for you though - my new shop here is single skin brick and about 6 feet from the start of my closest neighbour. Even though they're great people, I want to make sure I don't disturb them while I'm tinkering and so I'm not looking forward to doing sound tests this time around. I love brick, and having a good sized garage with lovely brick walls is just wonderful. The idea of having to slap 4" of insulation and soundproofing on it all and then putting up drywall makes me want to cry a little.

Manly, tough-guy sort of tears of course! With only manly, tough-guy sniffling.

 

[ED65]

You could also buy a cheap noise/db metre and test the sound levels at various places while you work.

+1 An even cheaper way to investigate this would be to download a free noise meter app for a smartphone.

Unless calibrated (which some do allow) I would presume these are generally not particularly accurate in absolute terms, but should be very accurate in relative terms so will do the necessary.

 

[MusicMan]

If you do go down the road of local isolation, consider a portable vocal recording booth, e.g.

https://www.dawsons.co.uk/essentials-vo ... gIvd_D_BwE

used in sound studios to isolate a singer or an instrument from other resonating instruments. You could find one with a top, or make your own, and it would fold away.

Keith

 

[thetyreman]

If you do go down the road of local isolation, consider a portable vocal recording booth, e.g.

https://www.dawsons.co.uk/essentials-vo ... gIvd_D_BwE

used in sound studios to isolate a singer or an instrument from other resonating instruments. You could find one with a top, or make your own, and it would fold away.

Keith

sorry keith but this won't do anything at all, soundproofing and isolation is completely different to acoustic treatment, foam does almost nothing to stop sound getting in or out of a room. You need mass/density to block sound, normal construction and walls are not designed for this, it's a specialist job, the wall has to support the extra weight so it won't collapse.

 

[MusicMan]

Tyreman

Yes, you are right about this particular device - I didn't check the specs before posting, and it is a lightweight one, just designed for high frequency scattering. As you say, foam does nothing to stop sound getting in or out of room. In the other sound isolation thread running, I made the same point, that you need mass and damping to block sound, as well as gap sealing to prevent diffraction. That said, acoustic cubicle screens (which are heavy) are reasonably effective in an office.

Having said that, a local containment booth, made for example with a framework supporting Soundbloc board, could be quite effective in limiting sound from a grinder getting through a window, for example.

As far as construction goes, I'm assuming the weight of the wall panels will be taken by the concrete floor. I agree the ceiling could be an issue, though.

I do have some specialist acoustic knowledge (currently doing a PhD largely in musical acoustics, in my retirement) but I didn't engage my brain before that last post! Thanks for pointing it out.

Keith

 

[Matt@]

a friend of mine (retired) moved house to a bungalow in a residential estate (more bungalows) and he set all his kit up in a tandem garage on his boundray wall. His outer wall of the garage backed onto the neighbours garden. Little sound insulation and lots of heavy duty machines all the usual stuff - spindle moulder, planer/ thicknesser, router table etc etc in use during day time. He moved approx 8 yrs ago and to my knowledge has never had a complaint. I am amazed :shock: I suppose it proves the point that perhaps we can get a bit too paranoid sometimes (or get lucky with our neighbours!!)

 

[julianf]

I have my CNC machine in a simple box, with a couple of drop down curtains.

One curtain is just thin waterproof stuff, and the other thicker, heavier, more usual sound deadening stuff - think carpet underlay etc.


But, the (to me, and possibly to you) interesting point is -

The bulk of the sound reduction is just gained from the thin curtain. Sure the thicker one adds, but its amazing what just blocking the immediate air movement does.

I also found this when trying to sound proof my forward control landrover (you sit virtually on top of the engine) - i lined it all with expensive sound proofing stuff, but the noise did not really go down until i blocked up all the small air holes. Then it went down a lot more.


In summary -

I would suggest that a simple curtain, so long as it goes full length, to close off the are as best as possible (im not talking you should suffocate inside, but just minimise the gaping) will cut down the sound a whole load. By no means totally, but you will do a good percentage with just some sort of heavy fabric.

 

[julianf]

ps. a lot can be said for also paying attention to timing.

noise during the day is just part of life, so people accept it to the extent that they dont even hear it (or rather their brains dont pay attention to their ears)

...but do the same on a sunny sunday afternoon, when people are wanting to sit in their gardens, with their kids, and the sound is perceived to be way louder, regardless of the scientific limits


Neighbour noise is also one where if it starts to cause upset, it will seem louder than it is also. We try hard to (and do) keep on good terms with our direct neighbours. A bit of noise is that bit less irritating if youve forgotten to put your bin out the night before, but the same neighbour who is making a bit of a racket wheeled it out for you, so you did not miss the collection... (etc)

 

[MarkDennehy]

MattRoberts on here suggested the sound dampening foam they use inside recording studios when I asked the same question two years ago. Bought a bunch off ebay, glued it to the roof. Worked quite well - I can now mortice inside the shed without bleeding from my ears due to the echo, and it takes bandsaw and sander noise from ear-protection-mandatory ranges inside the shed to quieter-than-the-five-year-old levels by the time you get to the patio door into the house ten yards away (as measured with an actual sound meter).

It's this stuff:

 

[OscarG]

If you do go down the road of local isolation, consider a portable vocal recording booth, e.g.

https://www.dawsons.co.uk/essentials-vo ... gIvd_D_BwE

used in sound studios to isolate a singer or an instrument from other resonating instruments. You could find one with a top, or make your own, and it would fold away.

Keith

Could you wrap that around a table saw to take the edge off the noise?

 

[DTR]

MattRoberts on here suggested the sound dampening foam they use inside recording studios when I asked the same question two years ago. Bought a bunch off ebay, glued it to the roof. Worked quite well - I can now mortice inside the shed without bleeding from my ears due to the echo, and it takes bandsaw and sander noise from ear-protection-mandatory ranges inside the shed to quieter-than-the-five-year-old levels by the time you get to the patio door into the house ten yards away (as measured with an actual sound meter).]

That's an interesting observation, because that foam isn't meant to insulate sound. They use it in studios to prevent sound reflections (i.e. echoes)

 

[MarkDennehy]

I think it's just that the shed has such lousy insulation to begin with that sticking *anything* on the walls is going to eat up some sound energy to a noticable degree. If I'd stuck some insulation between the OSB sheeting on the inside and the damp-proofing layer I don't think I'd notice any difference.

 

[MusicMan]

If you do go down the road of local isolation, consider a portable vocal recording booth, e.g.

https://www.dawsons.co.uk/essentials-vo ... gIvd_D_BwE

used in sound studios to isolate a singer or an instrument from other resonating instruments. You could find one with a top, or make your own, and it would fold away.

Keith

Could you wrap that around a table saw to take the edge off the noise?

Taking the edge off is what it does, ie absorb some of the high frequencies and reflections. As others have said, it increases the comfort in the vicinity, though it will do very little on sound transmitted to neighbours (because the high frequency will have been taken out by the shed walls anyway).

Sound deadening form that you can rig up yourself more cheaply, will have the same effect more cheaply.