sash clamps, new v old?

[AJB Temple]

Two house moves ago, when I didn't expect to have a workshop again and was having a clear out, I put several old T bar sash clamps in the skip. I am not quite sure what possessed me to do this, but now I am refitting my shop and acquiring clamps.

The specific need is gluing up kitchen unit doors, some full size doors and some worktops. The worktops require quiet heavy duty clamps. No rush as work will not start until next spring when the weather warms up.

I have bought a couple of old Record T bars (English made) off ebay and am waiting for them to arrive. Looking at typical eBay prices for 48" capacity old Record T bar clamps, generally in not brilliant condition, we are in the area of £52 plus around £18 postage for a pair. In fact I pulled out of an auction at just below that level last night. Looking at the Record site and places like tool station, new Record T bar clamps of that size are about £80 a pair plus £13 delivery. Sometimes there are deals on sets of 4 (though not usually on the T bars).

So new made in china is £93 versus old made in England but a bit rusty and in unknown state of trueness, £70 delivered. Does anyone have any experience of new versus old? Are the new ones of satisfactory quality? There comes a point where the saving on used gear is not worth it and I may as well buy new. Any other recommendations?

PS: If anyone would like to sell me some decent sash clamps in various sizes, please let me know. They don't necessarily have to be T bar.

Adrian

 

[rafezetter]

I think this guy just gave a confession of a cardinal sin - is here a priest in the house?

Ontopic I'd also be interested in this info - a few nights back I was joining up a few planks of wood for a small tabletop, but I'd got the biscuits slightly skewwiff so the boards didn't pull in easily with the axminster style quick clamps and figured the sash style would have been just the job.

On a similar note I've seen the non Tbar versions on offer from time to time, and obviously cheaper anyway too - are they significantly inferior to the Tbar style?

 

[stuartpaul]

For my sins I bought a set of 6 of the Rutlands (coughs and spits into corner) sash clamps some time ago. They're not as good as old fashioned records or similar (rough castings, thinner steel).

However, they do what clamps are supposed to do and clamp things! Not really a lot to go wrong with them I guess. What is annoying is that the holes aren't all in the same place on different clamps so when setting up I find that I have to fiddle around more than I'd like.

Given the choice I'd have Record T bars every time. My wallet thinks differently

 

[AJB Temple]

Incidentally, I am aware that Bessey are highly regarded. But the prices are eye watering. I looked at the Rutland ones and their "made in the same factory" spiel. Internet wisdom is that they are probably rejects from Record quality control. I ahem also seen the remarks about holes being lined up erratically and decided to pass on them, even though they are certainly cheap. I might have to go and have a look in Axminster and see what they have. A clamp is a pretty simple thing, but years ago I used to have some T bars that had a slight twist on them, so I am a bit wary of products that seem too good to be true.

 

[AJB Temple]

As it happens one of the Record clamps arrived today. This cost me £30 for a 36" T bar. Immaculate condition and extremely well made. This might have answered my question re the old v new record.

So if anyone has some to sell, please let me know!

 

[katellwood]

Prior to investing in Bessey I bought 4 of the t bar Rutlands ones and was impressed with them. I then purchased 6 of the 135 replicas which were sh1te
Im not too far away from Tunbridge Wells so if you need to borrow some or just have a look at the Rutlands tbar cramps you're more than welcome

 

[katellwood]

Delete duplicate post

 

[AJB Temple]

Thanks Katellwood. I have decided to stick to hunting down old record, maybe new record if I am short, or some Bessey. I have 4 months until I get going on my kitchen and probably 8 months before starting fit out (at least) so I have a bit of time to get stocked up. Luckily I saved all of my Record G clamps, mitre clamps etc and so it is just sash clamps in a range of sizes that I need. So far I have acquired the grand total of 2!

 

[custard]

Some years ago Bruce Hoadley wrote one of those game changing articles about gluing. One of his key points was that maximum strength PVA bonds require clamping pressures that are way higher than anything achievable outside of industry, in other words it's virtually impossible to over clamp in a domestic or small professional workshop, and if you're chasing the strongest possible joint you need, amongst other things, to maximise the clamping pressure. To this end he pointed out that rusty threads on sash clamps reduce the maximum pressure by at least half.

Worth thinking about.

 

[ColytonJohn]

Assuming your mental aberration was temporary and that you promise to never, ever deposit anything so valuable into a skip again I'm prepared to give my two pennyworth...

Buying 'quality' tools is always good practice as there is so much rubbish out there. However, are 'cheap' T bars so bad? Someone I met recently advised against them as, in his dubious opinion, "they bend"... and then proceeded to try and sell me some cramp heads (for attaching to timber battens) :roll: Surely if clamping that tightly you risk distorting your work piece (and squeeze out the glue)? Furthermore, if it is necessary to use so much energy to bring parts together, you probably haven't made it very well.

I like to think gentle pressure is all that's needed and cramp heads, luthier clamps or even, as I once had to use to bring a large counter top together, a Spanish windlass are sufficient and most of my clamping is with aluminium clamps due to being so much easier to handle than my mighty iron ones.

So, what I'm really saying is that 'cheap' T bars may not be so bad after all and cost a lot less than may be imagined: Toolstation have 1200 mm T bars listed for £18.31 each and non-T bars for £17.03 - with free delivery on orders over £10.

Cheers,
John

 

[katellwood]

Anyone contemplating cramp heads should seriously consider these type with tapered slots like these

As opposed to this type just with holes like these

The slot as opposed to the hole facilitates the head to pull tight to the wooden bar when tightened thus ensuring that the face of the clamp remains square to the bar

I keep a few sets of these mainly for curved work where I can cut a curved bar to facilitate the project

 

[heimlaga]

Would it work to use a rectangular box section mild steel tube instead of a batten? I have thought about that idea for quite some time. A 6 metre lenght of tube would produce quite a few cramps.

I wish I could find some real sash cramps....... but the chineese ones sold in Finland are totally useless and new records are very expensive for a far east product.

 

[Bm101]

Would it work to use a rectangular box section mild steel tube instead of a batten? I have thought about that idea for quite some time. A 6 metre lenght of tube would produce quite a few cramps.

I wish I could find some real sash cramps....... but the chineese ones sold in Finland are totally useless and new records are very expensive for a far east product.

Like these?

I even bought some plastic ends for them. More to protect sheds pine floor than the clamps.
PM me for details. Im knocking them out at the moment in 25x 50x3mm. Don't go any thinner than 3mm. And buy the old heads. Take your time AND DON'T BUY THE NEW ONES IF YOU CAN HELP IT. Old paramos and records are far superior in every aspect.
clamp-choices-t93528.html
Regards
Chris

 

[worn thumbs]

i have used steel box section,with a suitable slot,to replace the missing foot on a couple of incomplete Record sash cramps.It might be worth considering if you ever find cramps in such condition.The choice of T-bar over plain sash cramp can be swayed by the job in question;T-bar cramps usually have feet to help keep them upright and plain sash cramps can be threaded through quite narrow slots if the job requires.

All things being equal (as they seldom are!),I would prefer a Record in need of a bit of attention with wire wool and WD40 over a cheap import.On the other hand,when I needed a couple of six foot cramps in a bit of a hurry I bought the imports and have no regret-even though they required an hour or two of cleaning and de-burring.I only used them once and will hang on to them just in case...This thread shows why.

 

[heimlaga]

Would it work to use a rectangular box section mild steel tube instead of a batten? I have thought about that idea for quite some time. A 6 metre lenght of tube would produce quite a few cramps.

I wish I could find some real sash cramps....... but the chineese ones sold in Finland are totally useless and new records are very expensive for a far east product.

Like these?

I even bought some plastic ends for them. More to protect sheds pine floor than the clamps.
PM me for details. Im knocking them out at the moment in 25x 50x3mm. Don't go any thinner than 3mm. And buy the old heads. Take your time AND DON'T BUY THE NEW ONES IF YOU CAN HELP IT. Old paramos and records are far superior in every aspect.
clamp-choices-t93528.html
Regards
Chris

Great....... if I only could find some good quality heads.........
I have plenty of contackts in the steel fabrication and machinistry field so getting a 6 metre lenght of tube should be easy.

 

[dickm]

I keep a few sets of these mainly for curved work where I can cut a curved bar to facilitate the project

Genius! Never thought of that.

 

[MCB]

Would it work to use a rectangular box section mild steel tube instead of a batten? I have thought about that idea for quite some time. A 6 metre lenght of tube would produce quite a few cramps.

I had some Speedframe lying about in my shed and drilled it to use instead of wood battens with clamp heads

The clamp heads came from Tilgear when they were in Cuffley and sold ”Multibuys“

I'm very happy with the result. My only complaint is that the whole thing is rather heavy

MCB

 

[timber]

Two house moves ago, when I didn't expect to have a workshop again and was having a clear out, I put several old T bar sash clamps in the skip. I am not quite sure what possessed me to do this, but now I am refitting my shop and acquiring clamps.

The specific need is gluing up kitchen unit doors, some full size doors and some worktops. The worktops require quiet heavy duty clamps. No rush as work will not start until next spring when the weather warms up.

I have bought a couple of old Record T bars (English made) off ebay and am waiting for them to arrive. Looking at typical eBay prices for 48" capacity old Record T bar clamps, generally in not brilliant condition, we are in the area of £52 plus around £18 postage for a pair. In fact I pulled out of an auction at just below that level last night. Looking at the Record site and places like tool station, new Record T bar clamps of that size are about £80 a pair plus £13 delivery. Sometimes there are deals on sets of 4 (though not usually on the T bars).

So new made in china is £93 versus old made in England but a bit rusty and in unknown state of trueness, £70 delivered. Does anyone have any experience of new versus old? Are the new ones of satisfactory quality? There comes a point where the saving on used gear is not worth it and I may as well buy new. Any other recommendations?

PS: If anyone would like to sell me some decent sash clamps in various sizes, please let me know. They don't necessarily have to be T bar.

Adrian

I have sent you an email as I said I have all sorts of stuff including quite a few clamps I think one is around 6 foot long very handy to have plenty lying around
Regards
Timber

 

[wcndave]

In the last couple of years I've gone from a small shed making some toys, to large workshop making kitchens, stairs, workbenches and other furniture, so I had a rapid increase in clamps in a short time.

I have heard from Pros that too much clamping pressure simply squeezes the glue out, deforms the workpiece as it dries, and means you must have bad joinery...
The only thing I have every had to clamp really really hard was laminating the strips on my workbench top. each piece being very large, and only skip planed.

I won't talk about standard F clamps and quick clamps, as they're not really the subject of your post. Needless to say I have a rack of those, however these are my recent "long" clamp purchases (last 5 years) in order of least to most liked / reached for.

These clamps bend and twist, the jaws are hollow, not parallel, the holes for the end part get mashed, and just generally low quality.
However I needed 6 5ft and 6 4ft clamps in a hurry, for a "one off" job, and they were so damn cheap. £15 each.

Thing is that if I am doing say a bookcase and need to clamp, I have dovetails, or screws, or pocket holes, If I am doing doors I have dominos, or mortice and tenon... I don't think you need much pressure, you just want to hold it together. They are cheap rubbish, but they are _cheap_ and they work. They are just not heavy duty in any way.

Having said that I reach for these clamps the least, and only if I need long ones, or I use up the others and need more.

I wrote two reviews on Rutlands that they are not really heavy duty and therefore the title is misleading on their site, however they don't publish reviews less than 4 stars, so it never made it.

I started out with one record sash clamp.

Over here in Italy you can only buy F-clamps everywhere I go, so joiners were very interested in my sash clamps. However I do find them fiddly to keep adjusting the length all the time.

The cheap Rutlands ones, like above but green, are ok. £70 for 8 x 54" clamps I paid.

However the heads don't really stay parallel (I don't think they need to), fiddle to adjust length, small clamping surface area, I find sash clamps my least preferred option. But I do use them, and as I have 8, things like panel glue ups find me using them often.

The cheap ones seem to have an issue with the threads now, I think they are a bit stripped, and two of the clamps are very hard to turn at certain points, I might have to ditch them.

My old record is much nicer, but I just have the one.

Rutlands again did not publish my review, as I gave them 3 stars.

My preferred type of clamp overall now are parallel jaw clamps.

Quick, easy, large surface area, clamp using the sides next to the bar for odd parts, as much pressure as you need, there's nothing wrong with them that I can see. Meaning there's no disadvantage compared to sash clamps, and there are some advantages.

The rutlands ones above were quite cheap, 4 x 4ft for £90. They are actually pretty good.

More of a replacement for an f-clamp, I got some of these very small parallel clamps from Axminster. not really heavy duty, certainly not as much pressure as a standard f-clamp, but it's the large surface area I like. also no rotating part to get things out of alignment. These clamps are very good for many small jobs. I only include this because I got them recently, and I really do like them :wink:

My new favourite clamps. Almost as good as a Bessey. £45 for 1m, so almost as expensive too. What they have in addition is that the handle will pivot to 90deg so you can apply some really serious pressure. More than you ever need. I really like this clamp. I got 2x 1m ones as I didn't have any clamps in that length.

Still the best in my opinion. I wish all my clamps were Bessey. I have two of the 1.5m ones and they are just so good. Seriously good. And pricey...

So my clamping stock take shows that I have a small number of high quality clamps for general use. On that odd occasion I need 10 clamps, or I need really long ones, I have a large number of very cheap clamps. That seemed to make the most sense to me, as my usage pattern dictates.

If you're doing a kitchen, perhaps you want to get a cheap set for batching out, and then a few nice ones to last you a lifetime.

Also, any reason for sash over parallel? I am a convert to parallel now it must be said.

Finally, for work tops, do you not use the metal connectors that pull them together, which you fit into routed holes underneath?

Hope that is of some interest to anyone - didn't mean to write so much!

 

[custard]

I have heard from Pros that too much clamping pressure simply squeezes the glue out, deforms the workpiece as it dries, and means you must have bad joinery...
The only thing I have every had to clamp really really hard was laminating the strips on my workbench top. each piece being very large, and only skip planed.

If it's cramping up a mortice and tenon then I'd agree, you need just enough pressure to bring the shoulders home, and if the joint's been cut right then that's not much at all. Anything more just risks distortion.

But if it's jointing up an Oak table top then it's a different story, for absolute maximum strength on Titebond III for example the recommended pressure is 175-250psi for hardwoods. So in a hobbyist or small commercial workshop you can't over-cramp, as for all practical purposes you can't physically get enough cramps on the workpiece to exceed the recommended pressure.