Robert Sorby Turnmaster

[nicguthrie]

Hey again guys, just looking for a more informed opinion than my own, and some back up in reasoning things out.

I've only recently taken up Turning, and I've found that I love it! I've spent a few weeks worth of my free time practising spindle work with my skew to the point where I can get a nice clean shiny finish, if the wood is co-operative and the design not too fiddly, and I've reduced my dig-in rate from once every 2 seconds to about once every 30 minutes, so I'm very happy.

However, I bought my stuff as a total newby, and chose what seemed a good bargain at a cheap price, but a few of the tools are way too big for the projects I do, especially any bowl or vase stuff, So... I'm considering selling on a few of my larger tools and buying myself a more compact set. I lack storage space in my workshop, and I've rather liked the look of the Robert Sorby Turnmaster, with it's interchangeable cutters and heads. I'm attracted to the idea that it seems to be able to do everything from spindle work of midi to reasonably mini size, and hollowing too, just by a change of cutter, and it doesn't seem egregiously expensive, unlike some of it's competitors.

Thing is, I'm also well aware that woodwork seems to bring out the worst of the gadget for gadget sake money making crowd, and I don't want to invest £150 odds (with cutters etc) in a product that's not as good as it looks or even just not up to the task at hand.

Does anyone have any experience with it? Are any of it's competitors considered a lot better, or generally accepted as the dogs danglers? I actually discovered it while looking up the american easywood range, but that seemed expensive and seemed to need several handles, whereas you can just buy a few heads at £18 each and swap cutters that way on the Turnmaster. Then there's the huge range of hollowers (little & big brother system, sovereign, etc.) that all seem to me to be for larger projects, but again, I'm new, so I dunno.

If anyone would be willing to share some thoughts with me, it'd be a help. I may be missing some fatal flaw in the tool that is glaringly obvious to the experienced, so opinions and experiences please?
There's a wee video of the system here http://youtu.be/ccy5jHo5WGQ
Thanks.

Nic

 

[Bodrighy]

This is just my opinion mind: I would stick to basic tools and get to use them. A skew, a bowl and spindle gouge around the 3/8", 1/2" mark, a parting tool and you should be able to do most things. If you get the 'gadgets' they won't make you a better turner, if anything you will simply not learn. If you have been spending all that time with a skew then you obviously aren't afraid of learning to use the tools. a lot of new turners ignore it all together despite it being possibly the most versatile tool you can have. As you progress and get more skilled you can add to your armory but to be honest I don't use the fancy tools much and I do it full time. Save your money and buy some decent wood instead.

pete

 

[CHJ]

One thing you need to consider with any of these interchangeable head tool systems is the bulk of the working end, if you intend to use them for hollowing then consider their access needs and ability to reach around corners.

Like Pete, I would advocate you base your purchases on a considered need to do a task that experience and practise tells you your existing tooling won't allow rather than expect a new system to answer all your needs.

 

[finneyb]

Thing is, I'm also well aware that woodwork seems to bring out the worst of the gadget for gadget sake money making crowd,
Nic

Nic,

You hit the nail on the head.

I've never used the Turnmaster, but the issue I would have is the discontinuity of flow when you're turning and you need to change tool for 30 seconds. Its far easier to pick up another tool. You will need more than is offered on the Turnmaster so will need other tools.

I have a friend who has one of these all singing and dancing pieces that can be a table saw, router, teas-maid etc while it looks good on paper it doesn't work in real life because of the time it takes to change out.

Work to the KISS principle - Keep It Simple, Stupid.

Hope that helps

Brian

 

[chipmunk]

Hi Nic,
The problem with the Turnmaster is that it is basically a scraping tool. It certainly can be used on spindles and it can shift wood but unless extremely sharp, and this is difficult to achieve for scrapers without very regular honing, the finish will mostly be second rate to the finish you could achieve with tools that cut or slice the fibres.

IMHO the Turnmaster is quite cynically designed to snare the newby. It is marketed as a do-it-all tool and will allow you to rough shape stuff fairly easily (= without requiring much skill) and safely but the finish in general will be awful and you'll have to spend ages sanding out the tear-out, I'm afraid, to get anything close to decent. I don't want to start an argument here about scrapers but, apart from perhaps hollowing, they are usually used to refine shapes or smooth out irregularities rather than creating shapes.

My advice would be to stick to conventional tools as other have said, master sharpening them and using them in a style that suits you and perhaps spend some hard earned cash on some instruction or membership of a local club.

We all think that the new wonder-tool will change our turning and open up a whole new world of opportunities but the reality is that it rarely does.

HTH
Jon

 

[Spindle]

Hi

This was discussed before - see:

robert-sorby-turnmaster-t66736.html

Are you sure your tools are too large? Unless you are only turning really small / minature projects I'd check your technique, I don't often find the need to go smaller than a 3/8" spindle gouge or 1/2" bowl gouge.

Regards Mick

 

[nev]

what Brian said.
I've never used one and as far as i know it may be the best turning tool in the world BUT...
when turning anything but a simple shape I often find that I switch tools for one portion of cut that maybe takes a second or two and then back to the other. I certainly wouldnt want to be stopping and changing cutters etc just for that 1 second of turning.

 

[Bodrighy]

When I learnt to turn in school, all we had were scrapers (made of old files...no H&S in those days) and we made bowls, lamps, you name it from those. Didn't have chucks either. We used face plates and covered the holes in the bottom by either slapping felt on it or filling with smelly glue mixed with sawdust. Look at some of the amazing work you see on ld buildings and see what can be achieved with hardly any tools and skill.

pete

 

[tekno.mage]

The main downside I can see to these "do-it-all by just changing the cutter" type turning tools is just that - changing the cutter. When you get into turning the last thing you want to be doing is swapping cutters all the time (it's usually rather fiddly and often involves a small machine screw and special allen key - both of which just love being dropped and vanishing into the shavings!) aside from the fact that it interrupts the "flow" of the work.

If you really want to cut down on the storage space the tools take up - consider one of the collet-based handle systems on the market (like the Simon Hope system), which allow you to simply buy unhandled tools (cheaper and take up less room - you can even get special double ended ones) so all you need to do is swap a new tool into the handle when you need it and there are no silly little screws and allen keys to get lost. You could even keep your existing tools after removing the handles to use with one of these systems. It still means a bit of fiddling about when you want to swap tools, but it does save a bit of money and means your tools will take up less space. A lot of the turning demonstrators that visit turning clubs use these systems, purely because they take up less room and mean less weight to carry.

Having said that, I couldn't be bothered with even this kind of system. I prefer to buy unhandled tools and make my own wooden handles for them.

 

[Mike Wingate]

Individual tools. Multi head tools can be fiddly and you waste time and lose the flow changing the tips. Buy individual tools rather than sets. I generally turn my own handles.

 

[Richard Findley]

At a recent hands on night at our club a new member came and brought a couple of those "Easy tools", the American ones.

He explained that he did all his turning with them and could do all sorts of shapes in both bowls and spindle work. I had a piece of pine on the lathe so I said 'show me'. I have to say I was surprised how well they worked.

The chap explained that although he was happy with the tools he was interested to learn how to use 'proper' tools. He just couldn't work out why he should bother going to all that trouble and getting all those catches when he could already do it easily with these other tools.

I have to confess that I didn't really have an answer for him at the time, I just said it was up to him. If he wanted to learn proper tools I could show him, if not then carry on.

Since then I have been mulling it over. I'm sure there is an old saying about things you have to work for having a lot more significance. The thing is, if its easy then there is no challenge so it soon becomes boring. I think the thing people love about turning is the challenge, the steep learning curve and the satisfaction you get from making something beautiful that was actually quite difficult.

I would suggest that, if you have a spare £150 then it would be better spent taking a lesson with a professional rather than on expensive tools. Buy a good quality group of basic tools and learn to use them. Far more satisfying and long lasting than buying a tool to do it for you.

Cheers

Richard

 

[nicguthrie]

Thanks folks, many good points and considerations there, tho ones about speed of changing tips don't really count with this particular system since you seem to literally just unscrew the end and screw on the other, about 10 seconds work, which with my level of athleticism is probably about the same as popping one chisel back in the rack, getting the other one out, then finding my spot again

The cutter tips, if you do remove them, seem to be resharpenable which from my research seems unusual too.

I especially appreciate the idea of learning to do it right, and that journey making not only the work more meaningful, but each piece that you make has more of your own skill, personality and ability in it. Looking back on such bits is like looking at snapshots of your journey from total beginner towards mastery. I guess I've always admired Japanese thinking on these things.

I wouldn't consider using such a tool exclusively, partly for this reason but with my limitations as a wood turner, lacking energy and strength, and always being in pain due to my disability, I do fancy having that easy option available too - maybe I could mark all such pieces as "Cheating" on it's base? :lol:

As for My tools really being too large, I'm afraid that yeah, I was a total beginner (never even having turned before, just knowing I in general love such stuff) and when I found a cheap stock of very good quality old Sheffield steel HSS tools, and thinking more about the capacities of my lathe than the parts I'd be making most, I bought what they had left in stock. My square scraper is worst at 1.25 inch, the round scraper 1 inch, skew and bowl gouge and spindle gouge all about 3/4 inch. These are all a little on the large side for most of what I do, none of which has been larger than around 3 inches yet!

Most of my problem is with the bowl gouge, and mostly the fact I'm working untrained, but also that it has this flat-ended U shaped grind that seems to never be mentioned in tutorials or guides that I can find. The fingernail grind seems most popular now, and I'm still trying to figure out how to reliably change and re-grind it with what I have to a better profile.

Oh, and I'd have to travel quite a way to get a day's course, there's a very few turners around here, and one occasional small class, but it's on the only night of the week that is impossible for me to attend.

I've gotten near perfect finishes on some things using shear scraping and shearing cuts with the skew, even on some fairly temperamental practice wood I had, and that pushed me towards considering the Turnmaster... Bother - I can still talk myself into it or out of it inside of a few thoughts, so my mind is not yet made up, but thanks for the dialogue on it, and the chance to see other's opinions.

Sorry to waffle, I'm always that way - that's the trouble with teaching a naturally verbose person how to type fast

All input is appreciated.

Nic.

 

[nicguthrie]

I guess a large part of the descision rests on one aspect. I need a hollowing tool, for when the bowl gouge is just not enough anyway, and this has the potential to use several different various shaped hollowing heads, while also giving the option of being used as a variably shaped shear scraper.

Is there a better or more commonly used basic hollowing tool that I should be looking at? or does the RS TM system here have any major flaws that I'm missing? I know it's not long enough for deep hollowing, but I have a 7 inch over the bed clearance lathe anyway, so I'll not be doing massive items on it.

__EDIT__
Just read the other thread quoted earlier on the turnmaster, and there's a pretty good point, that the bulk of it's tip with the finger turning screw thread makes it hard to see what your doing or get clearance for small stuff... Looks like that holed the boat for me on this tool, I'm now even more at a loss for doing the small undercut bowls and vase forms I'd been considering, I'll have to do even more research into suitable tools, unless anyone has a straight forward suggestion? (preferably a polite one :wink: )

Thanks again.

Nic.

 

[chipmunk]

Hi Nic,
If it's for undercutting bowls or for hollowing small vessels then I think you cannot go far wrong with something like the Sorby 851 or perhaps even the 855 or 859 swan-necked hollowing tools.

http://www.stilesandbates.co.uk/product.php/section/6566/sn/X851H_MST

The Sorby HSS cutters (esp bullet cutter) work well in these tools - actually the same as the Turnmaster. But these tools are very easy to make for yourself provided you arrange for the cutting tip to be close to in-line with the straight shaft. The tapped hole at the end needs to be M5 to fit the Sorby cutters. I have both straight shafted and swan-necked tools like these - all home-made. I use either the supports from an old chop-saw (1/2" round) or square/round hot-rolled steel bar from B&Q/Homebase.

For each bend (2) heat the bar at the point where you want the bend to red heat with a blowtorch and just bend it - you'll be surprised how precise and easy it is. File it flat and cut a step at the end for the cutter after you've bent the bar. Drill (4.2 mm) and tap M5. Buy your M5 socket head screws in A2 stainless from Screwfix.

http://www.screwfix.com/p/socket-button-screws-a2-stainless-steel-m5-x-12mm-pack-of-50/42401

If you get really keen you can make your own HSS cutters too but for a first go I'd suggest buying from Sorby

http://www.stilesandbates.co.uk/product.php/section/6541/sn/RSCUTTERS_MST

Bullet cutters (8) work best in smaller tools but the hollowing cutter (4) can be useful if used gently for evening out the surface .

The only problem is they each have their own home made handle so the solution isn't compact.
HTH
Jon

 

[Dalboy]

Like many on here I prefer to use all the tools I already have. I did look at that tool and again like some on here could not be bothered with messing around changing cutter which would probably end up hiding amongst all the shavings and dust, at least with standard tools they are easier to find(I do clean up after the end of turning a piece or the end of the day).
You do not say what tools you already have.

 

[nicguthrie]

@ Chipmunk Thanks!, very interesting idea. I actually have a buddy that's a steel fabrication specialist and might knock me up something of that ilk in a spare moment. He's been asking me to make him some laminated wood parts for pet projects, so I reckon it'd be a fair deal! :wink:

Any chance of a couple of pics of your homemade stuff? Just so that I can figure it out more clearly than from the text above - you know what they say about a pic being worth a thousand words!

@ Dalboy Speaking of thousands of words, I did mention the tools I have, and how I screwed up buying them, but it was hidden in amongst the wall of text I typed last - but for clarity I don't mind drawing attention to my errors...

As for My tools really being too large, I'm afraid that yeah, I was a total beginner (never even having turned before, just knowing I in general love such stuff) and when I found a cheap stock of very good quality old Sheffield steel HSS tools, and thinking more about the capacities of my lathe than the parts I'd be making most, I bought what they had left in stock. My square scraper is worst at 1.25 inch, the round scraper 1 inch, skew and bowl gouge and spindle gouge all about 3/4 inch. These are all a little on the large side for most of what I do, none of which has been larger than around 3 inches yet!

If you have any suggestions of what I really should have bought, I'd appreciate any more experienced thoughts on the matter. Currently I'm looking at replacing the largest of them with 1/2 inch or smaller versions, and it was looking at the combined price of a few scrapers of the right sizes that made me consider the Turnmaster at £75 in the first place. Now that seems "off the table", I was thinking about maybe their box hollower tool, but the jury's still out. Almost everything I envisage doing on the lathe will be fairly small, within 4 or 5 inch diameter at the absolute maximum.

Interesting idea to make my own basic Sorby scraper tip holder tho... I like that, it appeals to the "MacGyver" in me

 

[Dalboy]

Sorry I missed it.

You could not go far wrong getting the Robert Sorby Turning set as I personally have found that had all the tools I needed to do a fair bit of turning and then once mastered them buy as you need. If you can find a club or someone to instruct you the better

 

[finneyb]

Nic,

Don't forget this forum has a For Sale Section - 2/3rds of the way down page one 'Record lathe ....' has tools to sell.
I got my button jaws from him.

Brian

 

[chipmunk]

Hi Nic,
Ok, so here are a few photos. These are two sets of hollowing tools I have made. The larger version uses 13mm square hot rolled steel from B&Q with approx 13" handles.

The smaller set uses offcuts of 12mm round bar from some old chop-saw supports I had with approx 10" (slightly too short really) handles.

Here's are a couple of close ups of the tips on the smaller tools (RS bullet cutters) ...

...and finally where the smaller tool shafts came from - I only needed to add one bend to get the cranked tool. 8)

Oh, and the ferrules are halves of 22mm end-feed Yorkshire straight pipe fitting.

Have fun
Jon

 

[Philip Streeting]

You might find this article helpful as an alternative way of making tools. The Oland is a popular choice for many turners and there are You Tube videos showing it being used. There are also threads here if you type Oland in the search box at the head of the Forum. The tool steel for the points is cheap and readily available. Many turners epoxy glue the cutters into the shaft. A search in Google will provide other references.

http://www.woodturnersresource.com/extras/projects/oland/