[RANT] Banana Shaped Timber!

[wizer]

RANT WARNING

ok so I go out this morning filled with enthusiasm to make a start on the workshop doors. First job was to rip an inch of the 2x4's. Spent time setting up the Triton Workstation, run some test cuts on offcuts. All fine. Run the first 4.8m length of 2x4 through and the saw is struggling, making all sorts of noises. Half way through I noticed the offcut seems to be shorter than the remaining piece. On closer inspection the wood is very bowed, in both directions. Grr. I went on to inspect the other 7 pieces. ALL useless. Bowed and warped. Basically no good for doors!

So I promptly spent another 30mins putting the Triton away and clearing up! Another lost day!

TBH it might be my fault that the wood has warped. It has been sitting under tarp for a few weeks.

How or where can I order wood and be sure it is dead straight?

I'm also going to have to think of a use for all that warped timber :roll:

Sorry for the rant guys :-({|= :roll:

 

[woodbloke]

WiZer wrote:

How or where can I order wood and be sure it is dead straight?

Good to have a rant from time to time...gets it off your chest. Most timber, 'specially at this time of year (after all the wet in October) will have soaked up a lot of moisture and keeping it away from free air circulation under a tarp won't have done it allot of good in terms of drying it out.....sooooo, I would suggest buying some more from a yard where its been kept under cover, but with good air circulation and keep it in the same sort of conditions when you store it. If the timber you're using is pine, this is usually pretty damp anyway so its a bit of a hit and miss affair wether you can keep it straight and true anyway as it dries. If you want to be absolutely sure that its seasoned, buy it now, keep it somewhere warmish, with good air circulation and then machine all the twisting and warping out of it in about 3 months - Rob

 

[RogerS]

Are you buying sawn or planed? I bought some sawn timber intending to save money but, after I'd run it through the TS, I had exactly the same problem as you, WiZeR. For that reason alone I tend now to buy already planed timber and then prepare it as necessary. At least you can see what it's like in the timber yard.

 

[Anonymous]

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[ProShop]

What timber are you using ? just any rough sawn or joinery quality rough sawn ?.

For softwood doors you might be better of using a straight grained timber like Douglas Fir or Hemlock.

Hope this helps

 

[ByronBlack]

I had this very same problem with another project last year. Basically, what I did in the end was to buy PAR timber as close to the finished dimensions as I needed, and then plane an equal amount of each side to acheive the desired thickness, this ensures that the drying rate is equal on both sides as new/damper timber is being exposed.

If you rip it down one side, then you have an uneven moisture content one side and this I believe helps the banana-ering of the wood - well, this is as well as I can explain how it was explained to me, if that makes sense

Or the alternative is to buy your doors? I recently took delivery of my doors from Wicks, cost £90 all in, and my dad is coming over to help me fit them today wohoo!! Finally, i'll have doors on the workshop!!

 

[Scrit]

You should always cut to length before you rip - or are you making 4.8M high doors?:shock:

Have you ever had that feeling of deja vu? :roll:

As others have said, air circulation, even out the planing side to side, etc. But a cheap moisture meter can help you find out what's happening - if you ar planing timber and one side is wetter than the other then expect bananas!

Scrit

 

[WellsWood]

How or where can I order wood and be sure it is dead straight?

Hi Wizer,
the simple answer is you pretty much can't. Even if you could get it straight and true from the merchant (and the only success I've ever had is to go and choose it myself from the pile) ripping any substantial amount off it stands a good chance of making it change shape. Moisture content and uneven drying are only part of the story, internal stresses in the timber are released when ripping which can cause the wood to change shape quite dramatically, hence the need for riving knives on saws. Then you're into cutting oversize and planing back to true I'm afraid.
Your best bet is probably to buy CLS timber from a well known "shed" where you can spend a quiet half an hour or so sorting out the best bits (without some oik looking over your shoulder and tapping his foot), and use it as is.
Failing that, if you have 4x2 you want to use rather than buy more I'm happy to run it through the PT for you, just give me a shout.

Mark

 

[wizer]

fit them today wohoo!! Finally, i'll have doors on the workshop!!

Kick a man when he's down! :evil: :wink:

thanks guys.

I forgot to mention it was PAR pine. Not sure what grade but it looks good apart from the warpage.

Thanks Mr_G I did not know it was best to cut to length then rip, I will take note.

hmm I need to spend some time thinking about this. It's a real dilema. I don't think I will find doors that will fit the exact dimensions (1m x 2m ish), allthough I will certainly have a look. I need at least the front doors on before xmas so keeping the wood to dry out isn't really an option.

Is douglas fir or hemlock much more expensive than pine? Should I think about Hardwood? Only problems with spending more on timber is that i'll have to make them less temporary and more prety. Which requires more skill and more time.

If I was to buy a Planer Thicknesser, am I likely to be able to plane down what I have to make it straight and true? or again is that something I shouldn't be trying atm.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Hi Wizer,

I'm not sure what type of doors you are trying to make, but as you are now fighting the elements and time, how about some braced and ledged doors using T&G floorboards? I've bought T&G floorboards from Wickes in the past for this sort of thing and they've been very good. Made well they would look OK and would be quick and easy to do.

Hope this helps :wink:

Paul

 

[Scrit]

Is douglas fir or hemlock much more expensive than pine?

Yes - there are less knots and the grain is generally a lot straighter.

Should I think about Hardwood?

Not necessarily, but remember that there's pine and pine. Avoid the sheds and small builders merchants like the plague as much of their stuff is only suitable for construction. Find a proper timber merchant and ask them to dimension for you. Give them a cutting list and they'll do the rest.

If I was to buy a Planer Thicknesser, am I likely to be able to plane down what I have to make it straight and true? or again is that something I shouldn't be trying atm.

Probably. Question is how much time/material do you have at your disposal. You are trying to pick-up a new skill at the same time as produce something and you're working to a deadline - so not a good combination, I'd say

Scrit

 

[ByronBlack]

If the doors are temporary, I would suggest going down the ledge and brace route - easy to do, cheap and will sort you out while you get time to do something better, why make a temporary door more hassle than it needs to be.

As for my door goat, it's only half a gloat as we only managed to get one door while we still had light, the frame wasn't square at all so required a fair bit of modification, but the first door is on, we have a 1-2mm gap all round and opens and shuts without scraping, so a little success.

I have to wait until next saturday now to get the second door on.

Getting bloody cold in the evenings now though.

 

[wizer]

hmm

Still cant make my mind up.

I just had a look around the web for pre-made doors. Cheapest I could find where £400 per pair for white coated steel. Seeing as I need 2 pairs, that's £800 That seems too much to me, however if this becomes the best option then there is money in the budget (although I am hoping to buy a new car tomorrow ).

Mark thanks for the offer to plane what I have. Maybe I should get a moisture meter (as suggested by scrit) and find out how wet they are. I'm not sure if this might be a futile attempt. I know I am intending on this being temporary, but I don't want them to buckle within a couple of months.

I may well have to spend an evening in B&Q or Wickes going through their CLS.

Paul, not a bad idea for ledge and brace, but wouldn't I have the same problems with warpage? Unless I used hardwood on the rear?

What a headache!
:roll:

 

[Losos]

Hi WiZer,
As the learned Scrit has spoken New technique, new project, deadline, all add up to nervous wreck Been there done that :wink: It's not worth it, take a step back, consider what are the options, make some 'tempory' doors just to meet the need and get on with planning Xmas.

In a years time you'll likely be in a position to make some permanent ones and the 'tempories' can be dismantled and used for some other 'quicky' job so you won't have wasted your money (Just try to avoid painting them)

Best of luck and regards.

Just read your post above - Warped (Ledge & brace) yes maybe, I'm no expert on this type of door (or any doors for that matter) but on my shop they've used that spongy strip stuff which seems to 'absorb' a certain amount of warpage

 

[Paul Chapman]

Paul, not a bad idea for ledge and brace, but wouldn't I have the same problems with warpage? Unless I used hardwood on the rear?

In my last house I made a tall back gate and a side door for my garage and had no problems at all. What I did was to use T&G floorboards. Usually with a braced and ledged door these tend to be nailed together. However, I used bolts, washers and nuts when I assembled mine. I had seen a few examples of nailed doors where they had started to come apart so I thought I'd try something different. I drilled the holes for the bolts slightly oversized to allow for a bit of expansion and contraction. I treated them with Sadolin Classic. When I sold the house they had been up a few years and I'd had no trouble with them at all.

Probably a bit unconventional but it was quick, easy and it worked - and if they'd failed it wouldn't have cost me a fortune :wink:

Paul

 

[les chicken]

WiZeR

Your original plan was to fix 18mm ply to the frame for the doors if i remember correctly.

Check your wood and cut to the lengths required and then see what the warpage is like. If it is not too bad and the ply is still flat, I would suggest you carry on as planned.

The uprights can be pulled into shape via the cross pieces and the ply will help the other way. The important factor as you have said is to get some form of doors on before christmas even if the one door is held straight by bolts top and bottom.

You have nothing to lose only your time and you have already bought the wood and ply.

Just a suggestion trying to help out.

Les