Old Steel

[nimmaj]

There seems to be a general sense that old steel is better than new steel. At least to some extent. People chasing old chisels, for example.

I was wondering why this is? I found a link to this article from Ron Hock's website. It starts to explain some of the science of steel but doesn't really address my question.

Is it to do with hammering the stuff more in the old days when there was more time, for example? As clifton do with their blades now?

Any thoughts appreciated!

Cheers...

Ben

 

[nimmaj]

http://ptonline.aip.org/journals/doc/PHTOAD-ft/vol_60/iss_5/88_1.shtml

Sorry - forgot to mark up the link...

 

[Benchwayze]

Nim,
I think part of the problem is the non availability of virgin metals. A lot of recycled steel is being used. I've no argument with that for making tin cans and cars (is there any difference?) , but for good tools you need virgin materials to begin with, so it can be processed properly.
hence the premium prices of some of the high-end tools.
That's what I was told!
HTH

 

[woodbloke]

I seem to remember that some of the best steel came from old anchor chains that had been underwater for a long time? (I think I read something about this on the Dick site) Interersting topic though and I'd like to learn more - Rob

 

[matthewwh]

The old steel issue can be chopped up into several sub-issues.

Were the toolmakers materials better in those days?
No, Steelmaking has advanced beyond recognition in the last 100 years. Modern steels are made in computer controlled furnaces and each batch is carefully analysed before it is poured.

Were the steelmakers raw materials better in those days?
Quite possibly. Working from 100% virgin ore (as the Japanese still do) is probably better than recycling in terms of the finished product. Having said that, most ores are subject to inconsistencies too.

How much does price effect quality?
Massively. A top of the range old blade will very likely walk all over a £10 a set chisel from one of the sheds. At the same time a good quality modern blade will definitely be as good as or better than the old blade.

What are the options?
Cheap and cheerful modern blades: May be very good steel but usually incorrectly heat treated in order to keep costs down.

Old 'uns from car boots: It's a gamble, generally the short ones are the best steel as the others got left in the box. You occasionally come across a good long one where somebody bought well and then didn't use them. look for recognised names and be ready to try the tools out before you put any more effort and money into re-handling them etc.

New high end tools: If you want to be able to take it out of the box and get on with your woodwork, this is the market for you.

The meiji (victorian) anchor chain thing relates to the wrought iron used in the backs of Japanese chisels. Here age is of benefit as the toolmakers want the most impure iron they can get their hands on. The older stuff had a higher proportion of slags left in, making it more ductile and therefore better as a jigane layer.

 

[nimmaj]

Oh yeah - think i remember that now. Wasn't it something about the japanese bespoke chisel blacksmiths having a length of old anchor chain lying around for the backs of the chisels? Or did i read that somewhere else?

My grandfather muttered something about cold rolling steel not being as good as heating and hammering. Do they really cold roll the steel that's used for blades?

Thanks for the responses. Much appreciated.

Ben

 

[nimmaj]

Nice one - thanks Matthew.

 

[neilyweely]

I have got a huge collection of old chisels, all bought for next to nowt. And some of them are absolutely amazing to work with. The old marples paring chisels for instance, they are jjust great. And I have some sorby mortice chisels you could tie the car to and lever them. Literally. They have a leather washer on them. Amazing stuff.

This is, for me, an interesting thread. Any other info on old chisels? Please? I got a couple of 'Bedford' chisels. Sheffield steel, named 'Bedford' . Would they have been made in Bedford? Or am I being naive?

Thanks

Neil

 

[Racers]

Hi,

The problem is we now know how to make things just good enough, now accountants have a hand in it everything its made to minimum spec. snap up any thing with the words Cast Steel on it.


Pete

 

[bugbear]

I seem to remember that some of the best steel came from old anchor chains that had been underwater for a long time? (I think I read something about this on the Dick site) Interersting topic though and I'd like to learn more - Rob

That's a common source of wrought iron (not steel) for backing hard steel (which is modern !) when making the Japanese laminated blades.

There is a lot of hype in this area though.

BugBear

 

[MIGNAL]

I have got a huge collection of old chisels, all bought for next to nowt. And some of them are absolutely amazing to work with. The old marples paring chisels for instance, they are jjust great. And I have some sorby mortice chisels you could tie the car to and lever them. Literally. They have a leather washer on them. Amazing stuff.

This is, for me, an interesting thread. Any other info on old chisels? Please? I got a couple of 'Bedford' chisels. Sheffield steel, named 'Bedford' . Would they have been made in Bedford? Or am I being naive?

Thanks

Neil

I have a couple of old(ish) Marples chisels that are extremely good. My experience with old steel is that it is a mixed bunch. Some of it can be very good, some poor, others average.

 

[Benchwayze]

Just one addition to Matthew's excellent summary.

The large size chisels are often longer than some of the smaller sizes, even for the same age. (So I've noticed.) I put that down to the mere fact that we tend to use the smaller sizes (say 3/4" down) more often than the large chisels. Just a thought, for when you come across one.

There is still something about the silky feel of smooth, grey old steel, that you recognise instinctively as 'good steel'.

Or is it just me?

 

[woodbloke]

Mathew - thanks for the info on steels...I find this sort of thing interesting. My old dad, who was an aircraft engineer in the RN (or more correctly the Fleet Air Arm) always used to call inferior, bendy, material... s**t steel (and it wasn't 'suit' :wink: :lol - Rob

 

[Evergreen]

This is, for me, an interesting thread. Any other info on old chisels? Please? I got a couple of 'Bedford' chisels. Sheffield steel, named 'Bedford' . Would they have been made in Bedford? Or am I being naive?

Hi Neil.

I don't know for sure but I suspect that "Bedford" is the name of the toolmaker. There was an old firm of John Bedford and Sons Ltd who made saws and many toolmakers in those days made a whole range of edged tools. I suspect John Bedford did the same.

Regards.

 

[ivan]

Hammering is important, as it affects the grain size within the steel. (It looks as if it's the same all through till you look at it microscopically) Repeated hammering gives a fine grain which translates into a blade that takes/keeps a sharper edge. Drop forging by contrast, and now usual, is a single blow which does nothing for the grain department.

Not all japanese chisels are hand hammered into shape, but the beter ones are, to gain this advantage. Older pre war Western tools would also have been hammered into shape.

Just south of Sheffield they made a live museum from an old works dating from the invention of cast steel, who were still casting bucket sized batches and making laminated scythe and sickle blades repeatedly triphammered, until the mid '30's. It was put back into wartime production, and is now a museum. Not been myself, but was included in one of Fred Dibnah's films.

 

[neilyweely]

evergreen
Yeah, I guessed that would be the case. It's a shame, as I had a notion of gaining a set of chisels from my home town. Not gonna happen, is it?

I am firmly in the camp that the older chisels are better. I have a couple of LN bevel edge and they are certainly great quality, but I would say that there are some of my old ones that are better; able to hold an edge better, heavier heft to them, I guess they just 'feel' better. Maybe 'cos I know they only cost a fraction of their worth..

Cheers all

Neil