Mystery plane

[Flartybarty]

Hi - my first posting on here so please be gentle !

I recently bought this moulding plane on that well-known e site.

Maker is G.R.Collier, Queens Road, Southend. This puts date of MFG between 1899 and 1915.
Condition is good with a well shaped wedge and no deep rust on the blade. No signs of excessive wear. Size and overall shape matches the usual dimensions.

BUT it's ass about face. The escapement is on the left hand size of the plane, even though the shoulder is on the right as per normal. The sole has, unfortunately, been interfered with. There is a slender piece of boxing inserted 14mm from the left hand side. Of this, 17mm of depth remains in the plane. The boxing is 2mm wide. The sole is 55mm wide but the mouth is only 20mm wide. Although there are nail holes in the remaining sole, there is no indication that this was sold with a fence (i.e. no large screw holes) although there was a bit of wood screwed on, which I've now removed (very small modern screws). Overall depth of the plane is just under 3-1/2 inches (reverting to imperial here) which is about usual and means that little or no material has been removed from the sole.

I did put some pics on photobucket but apparently I can't post links or webpage refs on here. Which is really, really frustrating.

I have been using and collecting tools all my adult life and I thought I knew quite a lot about the planemaking industry but this has me stumped. It's nothing to do with casemaking, carriagemaking, or wheelwrights. Neither is it a left handed version of a run-of-the mill moulder or bead - if that was the case, the shoulder would be on the left (i.e. a mirror of the normal right hand plane). The actual moulding it cuts is a small quirk OG, but although the mouth is quite tight (2mm) I'm certain this wasn't the original profile.

Any advice or clues would be most welcome ???

 

[AndyT]

That does sound intriguing. I'm struggling to visualise it though.

The restriction on posting links is a necessary response to the onslaught of spam posts that all sites like this get.
As a new member you can upload a picture as an attachment to a post (ie store it on the UKW server) but it has to be a small file and some people find the procedure awkward. There's a "sticky" guide at the top of each section.

When you have made three posts and proved that you are a real person, you can post links to photobucket etc.

I suggest you do this, as you sound the sort of person who would fit in well on here - welcome aboard!

 

[sunnybob]

you cant post hyperlinks, but if you type in the link with a couple of spaces that would be obvious to anybody, you can get round it that way.

 

[Flartybarty]

Aha Sunnybob, that sounds possible. so here goes.

s149 stop photo bucket stop com slash user slash 23904505 slash library slash Planes?sort=3&page=1

The photo and bucket words are one, of course.

 

[Flartybarty]

Well, that seems to have worked insofar as I haven't been struck by lightning for posting a link. Hope it makes sense to you and that you can see the pics.

 

[CHJ]

http://s149.photobucket.com/user/239045 ... t=3&page=1

 

[sunnybob]

There ya go. You dont need that many spaces though. Just one space will break the hyperlink.
For example if you were typing an email address all you need to do is type (at) instead of @ and the jobs done. Then the other party can copy the link into the address bar, and edit the @ back in.

 

[AndyT]

Well, that is a bit strange! I've never seen anything like it. A few random guesses might help spark discussion so I'll ramble on for a bit...

Left handed planes are very unusual. I assume that this plane would have been made to order for someone with a deep understanding of how planes work, who had good reason for wanting it this way. (It's professionally made and marked.)

I don't think that it's a user modified plane - there's no starting point plane which would yield something like it.

Left and right planes, or tools with paired irons, were needed where use of just one normal plane would force you to work against the grain. For example when planing a handrail with symmetrical mouldings on either side.

So, possibly, this could have been used with a matching normal plane, on a workpiece which needed to be moulded on both sides. It wouldn't have made sense to order a special plane for a one-off job, so I imagine it was for repetitive work on something made by hand.

The body, as you say, is much wider than the iron. This makes sense with the fence screwed on - a bit like the design of a moving fillister. Maybe the current, new looking fence is a replacement for an older one.

The best known trade which used some very odd looking special planes was plane making itself. It would be nice to deduce a use for it in making planes, but nothing springs to mind at the moment.

 

[memzey]

If it is for plane making then Andy (TollnTat of this parish) might know a bit more.

 

[Flartybarty]

Well, as I said in my original post, there is ample space for a fence but there is no evidence that one was ever fitted. The holes which are there are very evidently nail holes or small screw holes. There are around ten holes in total, so temporary fences of one size or another have been attached over the years. I'm thinking of the sort of fence that is normally found on a Fillister. The screws used on that sort of plane are quite hefty - around M10 to M12 and there is no hole of that size on this plane's sole. As to it being a left handed one of a pair - that is tempting but surely the shoulder would be on the left - i.e. a mirror image of the right handed plane ? Ideally, it would be great if I could lay my hands on the original mfg's catalogue ! But, as you say, this could be a one-off for a very special job. Another interesting feature is the distance between the boxing and the side of the plane. Checking out my other boxed planes, this distance is usually much wider. Is this a clue ?

Re: planemaking. Possible, but it doesn't match any of the planes known to have been used in this trade. Since I make my own moulders from time to time, this is something I've investigated quite comprehensively in the past. (I've also been through Whelan's books to no avail).

P.s. I'm left-handed, but the wear on this plane seems to indicate usual right-handed use. Although I suppose that means little, given the age of the thing.

Anyway, I'm very grateful for your input - it's nice to find so many knowledgeable people on one site.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Welcome to the forum, Flartybarty - and that's a cracker of a first post!

I've no idea either; but a couple of thoughts occur. As far as I can tell from the pictures, the bedding angle for the iron is about the usual for softwood work rather than cabinet pitch, so use may be more architectural than furniture. (Dust seals for airtight cases did occur as a possible application, but the moulding profile seems mighty odd for that application.)

About the only plane I can think of that throws the shaving to the left is the sash fillister, which makes me wonder if this plane is intended to follow the operation of sinking the rebate with a small, decorative moulding on the outside end of the sash bar tongue. That would make the right-hand side of the plane the fence, without any attachments. Not sure whether the plane's sole dimensions really support that idea though; It would also have to be a very high status building to warrant that degree of additional embellishment. There would also have to be a lot to cut to make a ordering of a special plane worthwhile!

 

[AndyT]

Just to help discussion, here are the pictures embedded in the post - Flartybarty, I hope you don't mind me doing this, but the version of the album that Photobucket gives you if you browse on a mobile is very hard to view.

 

[AndyT]

A quick digression on Collier's - you say " Ideally, it would be great if I could lay my hands on the original mfg's catalogue" - well, yes and no...

There is a scanned copy of a price list from Collier's, available as a download to TATHS members. It isn't illustrated, but does have this nice bit of puff about the planes:

BPM III notes that the planes sold by George R Collier's father, George Collier of Brixton, were made by Griffiths of Norwich. As one of the biggest, most successful plane makers, they certainly had the capacity to make special order planes.

An article in TATHS Journal no 7 gives some history of the Collier firms. It says that the Southend business of George R ran from 1886 to about 1914 or 15 when it was sold to F Fardon and Son and continued to trade into the late 1980s. It doesn't say that GR was really a "manufacturer" as most people would understand it, with stocks of timber and benches on the premises, despite his description of himself as such. Nor does it say who supplied planes with his mark on, but I guess Griffiths would be the most likely.

Overall, I don't think you will be able to identify this plane from a catalogue - if it was a standard pattern, you'd have recognised it.

 

[Flartybarty]

AndyT, no problem with the pics - help yourself. Your input into this little conundrum is very interesting. That this is a "special" I think is pretty obvious, otherwise a) there would be more examples known and b) it would have cropped up in the literature. But exactly what it was for is a real puzzler. Obviously not for a couple of feet of moulding - you could make up a scratch stock for that so it must have been for something which warranted the expense of making a special tool.

I wonder if the Rees couple visit this forum ?

 

[AndyT]

Sadly the Reeses are not a couple any more - Mark died some years ago. For input from Jane and other plane specialists who don't frequent this forum, I think pictures of your plane should go to the TATHS whatsits and queries service - see here http://www.taths.org.uk/queries - or on the TATHS Facebook page.

Still scratching my head about your plane and looking at the boxing, I think it's original and not a modification. It's a bit like the boxing on this (anonymous) one of mine, with boxwood just for the most vulnerable part of the profile.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

Looking at the last photo of the OP's plane, my first thought was "user modified sidebead".

But (a) why is it left handed and (b) why is the body so wide given the width of the cutter ?

 

[AndyT]

It's a real puzzle and it's bugging me! If it had been modified from a normal plane, it would have had an escapement on the right.

So there must be a reason why it's made the 'wrong' way round.
In this picture,



there seem to be streaks worn on what would normally be the open side, suggesting that maybe it has been run alongside some sort of fence or jig. An odd sort of left-handed one? But if that is so, why not leave the escapement on the normal, right-hand side?

Thinking about the the extra wide sole, maybe that could made sense only in conjunction with some sort of workholder or jig that we don't know about.

The other thing that occurs to me is that most ordinary moulding planes cut along an exposed edge of the work, and are often held at an angle from the vertical (because the iron is 'sprung'). This plane would work a profile straight down, below the surface of the work, like a centre bead does. That's not a common requirement.
Where do we find mouldings like that? I don't know! I did spend a while staring at pictures of the sort of moulding you sometimes get on very small hollows and rounds, where the working part is narrower than the stock, but it's not right for them either.

 

[toolsntat]

Not seen the like of this arrangement before.

I have a left handed escapement plane that is used in the second stage of plane wedge shaping which is a mystery until I get to shaping a few wedges.....

This plane appears to have been used by a right handed person going on the hand grip shading and (tenuous I know but) the majority of hammer strike crescents on the heel. Looks like a few recent left strikes?

Just a spurious thought but I have case making possibilities for this set up.?
Hard to judge but is the finished shape able to fit together.
The fence looks to be the same distance from the cut as the open side.

What a difference it could make to to see it close up.
Not by any chance visiting the Midlands soon are you?
the-2116-hand-tool-open-workshop-macmillan-charity-weekend-t96331-45.html

Cheers for now
Andy

 

[memzey]

I knew you'd pop in at some point Andy! How are you doing mate? I'll see you at Richard's do if I don't see you before.

 

[Dovetaildave]

Hi Mr Bartfast,

Roy Underhill uses a sticking board to great effect here in a particular episode: The Woodwright's Shop / S05E13 : A Glass Act

Possibly the only time I've seen anyone actually produce a whole glazing bar,(he calls it a muntin) including both rebates (sash fillister) as well as both Ovolo's with a sprung plane.

I hasten to add that the sticking board in this particular episode must be 50 years old by the grotty look of it, but it does the job soooo well, I presume there's a standard rebate dimension for glazing otherwise you'd need a different board/step for each size of rebate.

Looking at your example; the wear on the side and the additional fence, and possible depthstop, unsprung, it makes me think it was used in conjunction with some kind of sticking board.

I'm a leftie and ive got quite a few moulders, I'd love to see if I could actually use my left hand on a moulder :lol: .

Are you able to post a photo of a moulding made using it ?