Kreg Pocket hole jigs

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Does anybody use glue, dowels or biscuits for alignment, then pocket holes to hold it together? or is that just pointless?

For my latest Adirondack chair, I am using Cascamite glue with the Kreg P/H system

To plug the pockets I buy 9.5 mm wooden dowels similar to THESE and cut them to length on the bandsaw; then clean up with a pull saw
Works out quite economical :)
There is a youtube somewhere showing the dowel pullsaw system plugging the pockets

Edit
..and here is The Video
 
I would love an adirondack chair. The big problem is once I sat in one I would have a hell of a job getting back to my feet.

John (hammer) :mrgreen:
 
AES":3l627qyw said:
Thanks Lonsdale, I did buy a couple of hundred from you (but haven't looked to see what drive the heads have - I don't use my K4 all that much). But if they're pozi, then IMO, coupled with your sensible prices they'd been an even better buy than I thought!

Cheers
Ah yeah, thought the name was familiar. Sadly, the 32mm ones you bought are R2/S2/Square hole. the 25mm ones will definitely work wth PZ2, I checked.
 
Ok mate, thanks. I haven't even unpacked them yet! Too busy on the "Longest Project ..... " series of posts (AND with finishing the project itself)! Good news that at least one size have Pozi drive heads though - I can certainly "manage" with the Robertson square drives, but as said, I'm not a fan of them.
 
If you have a Leigh dovetail jig, you have a hand driven Square Drive screwdriver that will fit the kreg screws. In the past I have used one to cinch down kreg screws by hand; when a power drill was too big.

John
 
Thanks benchwayze, I have something similar (I think - a T-handled hand driver that will take many different bits, including the Kreg square drive).

But it's not that they "can't" be driven nicely, it's just that even if you're dead square above the screw and use plenty of down-force, I find that the square drive cam out a bit too easily, especially if compared to Pozi, or even better, to Torx - after all, the torque (sorry) is, in the end, only being delivered through the 4 corners of a square. As you suggest, a particular problem with power driving.

Robertson's are NOT (IMO) a brilliant piece of design, on the contrary, and with (probably) even less actual drive area than you get with an old-fashioned slotted head screw (IF you use the right screwdriver)!

But like I said, it's probably a personal thing with just me.
 
Hi AES,

The job I needed the hand driver for was a case for Blu-ray discs. I could have oriented the case differently, yes but I wanted the holes on the inside, and preferred the ends inside the top and bottom. which meant no room for a power drill. So I fixed the screws with the hand driver; after all it was just 8 screws.

(Also, if I use ordinary screws, I happen to have a few hundred small washers that just fit and I use those to give the screw head something to bed against.

HTH

John (hammer)
 
I don’t have the Kreg jig but on the UJK one that Axminster sell (very good quality bit of kit IMHO) all the screws are torx drive with a pan head. They hold and drive extremely well although as I’ve never used the Robertson ones to compare them to I can’t assess which works best.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives

@AES: I'm not sure who told me about Roberstson screw heads being used in aircraft - if I am perpetuating an urban (workshop) myth, I apologise. I've looked at the Wikipedia pages and there are references to time saved on production lines by using Robertson screws (Henry Ford liked them, apparently), but nothing about aircraft: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... #Robertson

I have to say though, that I have never, ever had one cam out - quite the opposite: they seem to work better than any of the alternatives, except possibly Allen heads. I have, however seen some cheap "square drive" driver bits that are _not_ the Robertson form. So those won't mate properly with Robertson screws and may be the reason for the issue. It's the same with cheap Pozidriv and Phillips drivers (and screws): loose tolerances always cause problems.

robertson.png

As you can see above, the shape of the Robertson screw head and driver is a double-tapered 4-sided pyramid with a blunt tip. You can use them with the driver slightly off-axis, but on-axis I find the shape acts like a Morse taper and the screw fits snugly on the end of the driver. Phillips screws do this too, but nowhere nearly as well. This taper is really handy for driving pocket hole screws upwards, or into awkward spots - sometimes you can put the screws in first, but sometimes you can't (because the heads stick out). there are now a couple of variants used in engineering, the double-square and triple-square, with eight and twelve corners respectively. Tellingly, both keep the Robertson taper (if I correctly understand the Wikipedia entry), and can be used with Robertson drivers (although this may not be wise as they are intended for high-torque applications).

Other candidates for best system would be Allen heads - they get my #2 slot - and Torx.

The trouble with Torx is the geometry for countersunk screws: the "blades" of the screwdriver form stick out. In cross-section you are making a rectangular hole in a triangle. You can't make that hole too deep, or the deep corners will break out of the sides of the countersink. Even if they don't actually break through they could weaken the head of the screw considerably. So either you have a shallow hole, or your driver needs to be narrower to fit in the available metal of the screwhead. Torx screws for retail sale usually have a driver size that's too big (T25), and too shallow (to stop the screw head snapping). So they don't stay on the driver...

... I find this a right PITA, as they also cause the driver bits to wear too fast right at the end, so the fit becomes looser and the bit eventually snaps. I used to be able to get Torx screws with a T20 head - these were far better, both in fit on the driver and wear. I can only assume the manufacturers think decking fitters will be annoyed by having to use several sizes of bit, and thus "standardized" on T25. It does mean they can sell lots of bits though. Of course, if it's domed or cheesehead these issues don't apply (as much).

Back markers in this field have to be the cross-head variants, Phillips and Pozidriv. I still have a genuine, original Pozidriv #2 screwdriver somewhere from the British consumer launch way back inthe 1970s (Pozidriv is a British invention, BTW). Like everybody, I use them all the time, but I don't like them. Far too many variants, far too many badly stamped screws and drivers, far too many metal splinters...

... I know: far too much detail, too. :oops:

E.
 

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@ Eric the Viking, you wrote, QUOTE: ... I know: far too much detail, too. :oops: UNQUOTE:

Not at all, I find such things very interesting (I know, filling my now limited head capacity with all sorts of vaguely useless information) :D

Interesting that our experience of Robertson is different. Oh well. That's life!

Cheers

Edit for a P.S. I know what you mean about Torx heads in CS screws though, but here anyway "small" CS screws may well have T15 or T20 heads, even T10 on really small screws, and it's only when you get to "bigger" CS screws that the drives go to a more or less T25 "standard" (sometimes even T30)
 
AES":2mhiw4x4 said:
Interesting that our experience of Robertson is different. Oh well. That's life!

Is your experience based on genuine Kreg drivers? I had similar issues with their long bits and one became unusable very quickly. Naturally, I blamed myself for maybe applying too much force. I found the stubby one so much better.
 
Yeah, I tried both the long and short ("bitz"-type) drivers, but all were genuine Kreg bits, bought "direct" from Kreg (via Axi, back when they were Kreg dealers). You're right, the long ones are worse (maybe a bit easier to stray off the vertical, but handy non the less in tight spots), but so far (I haven't used Kreg all that much) for me anyway, both do suffer cam out. But as said, maybe it's just me and I only need to "refine" my technique (AND the clutch setting when power driving).

No big deal though, as also said before, I can "manage" with them.
 
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