Idwal stones - what can you guys tell me?

[D_W]

I've managed to get a hold of a nice gray one in the past year or so. I haven't been looking too hard, but have thought that I'd like to have another one that I can use in the shop. I put the first one in the bathroom for the twice a year hone that my straight razor requires.

I did manage to track down a second one this week. What i can gather from the stone using it on razors is that it's fairly similar to a fine arkansas stone, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of regard for them (whereas a vintage full size hard/trans arkansas stone will quickly go for over $100).

Any of you guys using them? I'll be curious to see how the second one works compared to the first. On razors, at least, I favor the idwal more than a charnley - the charnley stones I've gotten have been quite variable and soft compared to the idwal. Hard compared to anything else, but soft compared to the idwal or a trans ark.

 

[D_W]

Well, I guess I see why such a fine stone can be had for $25 on UK ebay - nobody is speaking up about using one as a finisher.

 

[AndyT]

I've got a Yellow Lake which I believe is similar. There's a thread about it here

yellow-lake-honing-stone-t77318.html

Nice for a final polish, when I have the need and patience, but not my everyday default stone.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Can't add much to Andy's post and link. There probably aren't that many of them about. The Cwm Idwal quarry isn't large, and there was never any access other than a footpath, or perhaps pack-horse track. The area is a very popular place for hill walkers and rock climbers, these days. It's also popular with geological students, being a very complex area of ancient sedimentary rocks, ancient volcanics, and metamorphosed rocks (from which the Cwm Idwal seam comes, I think).

 

[essexalan]

Seem to come in several flavours with the finest probably sold as Grecian Hones in days gone by. Not sure that all of these LI stones actually come from LI they did extract Novaculite hones from Llyn Melynllyn but I do not know what Salmen were digging out. Most of the stones sold in those red or yellow boxes are slate and the Yellow Lake moniker is just a trade name, you might get lucky though. The finer LIs I have cut a little faster than a white Ark Translucent and wear well similar edge but more polished than a 13K Sigma waterstone. Certainly harder than the usual Charnley but CWs come in a variety of flavours as well and some of those seem quite hard and fine.

 

[D_W]

I've only had probably 3 CWs (can't remember what I've said above), but the third of the three is a very good reminder that some of them are quite coarse.

They are a good option for you guys over there, as they can be found on the ground. I've not gotten below $60 for one over here, though.

Both of the LIs I bought are the gray grecian-ish type. It'll be interesting to see if the second is as good as the first. Not that I need it, I guess.

 

[adrspach]

Perhaps I will chip in a bit.
You can not compare LI and YL due to:
LI is Novaculite, YL is slate. LI gives broader range of finish comparing with YL depending on quality of the hone you use. Hardness of LI can vary considerably. YL is generally softer and will make slurry more readily. Due to that hardness LI is better to use for gauges however if you have good Translucent that would be my weapon of choice as it is even harder therefore les prone to scratches from them.

However I agree that at present good examples of LI are probably the best for their price most readily available natural hones on UK market for user honing under pressure such as woodworkers and carvers. BUT as with all natural hones they are subject to personal preference of their users.

And now to address some other myths.
LI quarry is not much smaller that Whittle Hill quarry for CF. As with transport old Roman road was about 150 yards away from the quarry which I would not call difficult to access by foot, horseback or wagon,
Problem with the LI hones is that from my experience with the steel is more like gritty rather that Translucent or good quality CF both of which will give more readily higher grit finish but they are slower to work with.

So far I have seen 3 more quarries which produced hone material very -very similar if not the same to LI quarry and one of those quarries is the Yellow Lake quarry.

To Allan. Weather is getting better. Once my workshop and stone dressing bench are working you are welcome to come and try few of those yourself.

 

[D_W]

I would presume that what made the Arkansas stones so desirable to the English market 125 years ago was their consistency. Very little practical difference between translucent stones from different mines.

 

[essexalan]

I would presume that what made the Arkansas stones so desirable to the English market 125 years ago was their consistency. Very little practical difference between translucent stones from different mines.

Probably the consistency of supply as well as quality. I get the feeling that a lot of UK stones were a bit of a cottage industry while the US got the extraction and shaping mechanised very quickly. Odd that Washita stones seem to outnumber the various other Arkansas stones by a considerable margin in the secondhand shops and ebay.

 

[bugbear]

I would presume that what made the Arkansas stones so desirable to the English market 125 years ago was their consistency. Very little practical difference between translucent stones from different mines.

Probably the consistency of supply as well as quality. I get the feeling that a lot of UK stones were a bit of a cottage industry while the US got the extraction and shaping mechanised very quickly. Odd that Washita stones seem to outnumber the various other Arkansas stones by a considerable margin in the secondhand shops and ebay.

I imagine that's the ratio the quarry spits 'em out in.

BugBear

 

[lurker]

Charnwood forest stone came from several quarries. Whittle hill (walking distance of my home) frequently gets a mentions as it had the better, more accessible stuff.
I do a bit of dry stone walling in the area and have found a damn great chunck of rock that I am hoping will yeild a big honing stone. One day I'll get a stone mason to slice it for me.

 

[lurker]

I would presume that what made the Arkansas stones so desirable to the English market 125 years ago was their consistency. Very little practical difference between translucent stones from different mines.

My assumption has always been that the economies of scale made it so cheap it killed the market for the expensive (rarer) home grown stuff.

I live on the edge of Charnwood forest, which is essentially the remains of a volcano. There is lots of stone, granite, slate etc that has been used for honing. I have a lump of a reject gravestone made from Swithland slate and its used as a very soft final hone. Well it was before I started using lapping film :roll:

About 15 miles south (on the old London road) is the village of Whetstone: I've often wondered if this was where hones from the area were shipped from.

 

[AndyT]

Odd that Washita stones seem to outnumber the various other Arkansas stones by a considerable margin in the secondhand shops and ebay.

I think I can offer a simple explanation for that - Washita were cheaper.

For a spot of evidence, look at the Buck and Hickman catalogue of 1953. I'm pretty sure they would have traded as a wholesale distributor back then, as now, in addition to serving trade end users. It's quite likely that a lot of the stones on the secondhand market would have been bought new in the 1950s.

A 6" x2" x 1" unmounted Norton Pike Arkansas stone was 62s 6d.

But a Washita stone, 6"x2", (thickness not specified) was only 12s 6d.

It's worth noting that there was much more choice available in synthetic stones - a 6x2x1 India stone was only 6s.

(The Arkansas price of 62s 6d was a substantial sum - a Record or Stanley no 7 plane was cheaper, at 59 shillings.)

Looking back at other, older catalogues, the price premium for the Arkansas stone is the same, or in some cases only the Washitas are offered.

 

[bugbear]

Odd that Washita stones seem to outnumber the various other Arkansas stones by a considerable margin in the secondhand shops and ebay.

I think I can offer a simple explanation for that - Washita were cheaper.

Agreed, which leads to the question of why were they cheaper, which I attempted to answer with my quarry suggestion.

BugBear

 

[Cheshirechappie]

LI quarry is not much smaller that Whittle Hill quarry for CF. As with transport old Roman road was about 150 yards away from the quarry which I would not call difficult to access by foot, horseback or wagon,
Problem with the LI hones is that from my experience with the steel is more like gritty rather that Translucent or good quality CF both of which will give more readily higher grit finish but they are slower to work with.

So far I have seen 3 more quarries which produced hone material very -very similar if not the same to LI quarry and one of those quarries is the Yellow Lake quarry.
.

That's interesting. Admittedly, it's a fair few years since, but I've walked in that area and certainly don't recall anything like a medium or large quarry. There is a sort of defile about 20 or so feet wide (the width of the seam, maybe?) and maybe 50 yards or so long, not far from the carpark, but in Welsh quarry terms (and there are a lot of those!) it's barely a scratch. The Melynllyn quarry/mine is much larger, and there are remains of a stone-built dressing shed.

Would you be kind enough to give me an OS grid reference for the Cwm Idwal quarry? It would be nice to place it exactly!

Edit to add - not to worry; found it! Scroll to the bottom of this link, which gives the grid references for six hone stone quarries in the North Wales area. They're all tiny except Melynllyn; none of them are marked on the OS 1:50,000 sheet 115 Snowdon/Yr Wyddfa - not even a hint of waste tip.

http://www.britishblades.com/forums/arc ... 73488.html

 

[D_W]

Odd that Washita stones seem to outnumber the various other Arkansas stones by a considerable margin in the secondhand shops and ebay.

I think I can offer a simple explanation for that - Washita were cheaper.

For a spot of evidence, look at the Buck and Hickman catalogue of 1953. I'm pretty sure they would have traded as a wholesale distributor back then, as now, in addition to serving trade end users. It's quite likely that a lot of the stones on the secondhand market would have been bought new in the 1950s.

A 6" x2" x 1" unmounted Norton Pike Arkansas stone was 62s 6d.

But a Washita stone, 6"x2", (thickness not specified) was only 12s 6d.

It's worth noting that there was much more choice available in synthetic stones - a 6x2x1 India stone was only 6s.

(The Arkansas price of 62s 6d was a substantial sum - a Record or Stanley no 7 plane was cheaper, at 59 shillings.)

Looking back at other, older catalogues, the price premium for the Arkansas stone is the same, or in some cases only the Washitas are offered.

I should've been more clear. I definitely would include the washita with the ark stones, because they would've "come over on the same boat". They were a lot easier to mine and would be easily mined now, whereas the harder to cut (much more waste and smaller chunks of rock) trans stones are still being mined and sold. They can be found in various places, though, and the washita stones cannot - norton owns the only genuine washita mine(s).

At any rate, no other natural stone cuts like a washita, I'd imagine that they took over due to uniformity, cost, and the much needed ability to hone faster.

The other common offering in the US (carborundum corp products) sold like crazy for the same price, but they are worth very little on the second hand market because they're not that desirable. Far more of them are unused or little used than washita, I can imagine the disappointment that craftsmen would've had with a "fine carborundum" stone, shedding grit all over their hands and making a toothy edge that never came to a nice polish.

At any rate, vintage translucent stones of size are relatively rare here, too - I've never seen one at a yard sale or flea market (someone who travels those a lot will see them once in a while, though). Washitas are easy to find in the wild. My dad, who never used a stone to do anything other than sharpen a hunting knife, had a gummed up washita stone. He described it as worthless because it didn't cut. We cleaned it off and I thought maybe he'd donate it to my habit, but once he saw how well it worked clean, he wouldn't give it up. They are probably as common as hone slates are over there.

My understanding of the pike rock is that it comes out of the mine in 1500-2500 pound chunks that are very uniform, so if anyone could ever pry norton away from it, it would be easy to make new stones. Just not profitable when used ones sell for a dollar to $50 (excluding those with good labels on them).

 

[D_W]

I would presume that what made the Arkansas stones so desirable to the English market 125 years ago was their consistency. Very little practical difference between translucent stones from different mines.

Probably the consistency of supply as well as quality. I get the feeling that a lot of UK stones were a bit of a cottage industry while the US got the extraction and shaping mechanised very quickly. Odd that Washita stones seem to outnumber the various other Arkansas stones by a considerable margin in the secondhand shops and ebay.

I imagine that's the ratio the quarry spits 'em out in.

BugBear

Yes, big chunks, easily processed (the washitas) and a seemingly endless supply of raw materials for anyone who wants to dig them out and cut them.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Just for interest, here's a small selection of photos of the Melynllyn quarry and mill.

http://heritagephotoarchive.co.uk/p440400118

...and one of the Idwal quarry here; as you can see, it clearly hasn't been worked for some time!

https://scytheassociation.org/2015/08/2 ... snowdonia/

 

[AndyT]

This should help with locating the Llyn Idwal quarry, just behind the Youth Hostel at 648604:

Aerial view https://binged.it/2oMnwlO

OS Map: https://binged.it/2oMU27p

 

[whiskywill]

Not sure that all of these LI stones actually come from LI they did extract Novaculite hones from Llyn Melynllyn but I do not know what Salmen were digging out. Most of the stones sold in those red or yellow boxes are slate and the Yellow Lake moniker is just a trade name

You might not know but Mellynllyn means Yellow lake in English