Has it really come to this?

[RogerS]

I came across this sad item of news in todays paper.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 047101.ece

Has this country really lost the plot to such an extent?

Did no-one on site have the balls to say 'Sod it - use the hoist and bring her up'?

 

[Digit]

Did no-one on site have the balls to say 'Sod it - use the hoist and bring her up'?

To their last shame, apparently not.

Roy.

 

[big soft moose]

It does seem more than a little stupid, but in the firemens defence it is much easier to be righteous behind a computer screen than it is when its you thats putting your neck on the line.

suppose someone had said - "sod it" and used the winch to bring her up but there had been an accident - would that firemans managers then stood behind him or would they have weaseled and hung him out to dry for breaching protocol ? with the possibility of him then loosing his job and thus his house and family

the fault in this situation doesnt rest with the firemen but with the pencil pusher who circulated that memo in the first place - why they dont have equipment suitable for public rescue is the real question

 

[matt]

Begs the question why the fire brigade do not have lifting equipment suitable for use on civilians?

And why did it take 6 hours to implement a suitable solution? Although the article does not make clear the delay from discovery to finally bring her to the surface - was it six hours delay?!

And what penalty would the individual (because the memo would, in all likelihood, have shielded the brigade) with sufficient balls face if she had died of a heart attack when they were using their lifting equipment? Or the penalty if she were just fine but they'd still broken the rules?

I can't imagine a single fireman who would not have wrestled with not being able to do more - they're not exactly your regular jobs-worth.

Obviously, in hindsight, I suspect they would all have said sod the consequences. I'm guessing they were reasonably satisfied that she was not in immediate danger.

I guess you really had to be there.

 

[studders]

I don't really get it. :?

If it was OK to use the hoist to lower a Fireman why was it not OK, memo aside, to use it to bring her up?

 

[Digit]

Studders! Would you please stop being logical, it confuses people! :lol:

Roy.

 

[studders]

Sorry.


Still don't get it though.

 

[big soft moose]

I don't really get it. :?

If it was OK to use the hoist to lower a Fireman why was it not OK, memo aside, to use it to bring her up?

I would suspect that its to do with being "apropriately trained" to use the equipment, maybe the hoists that fire brigade has are the type wear you can only lift one person at once so the person being lifted has to know how to stay safe in the harness.

the mountain rescue team would have the stretchers etc to strap someone in and then winch it out vertically.

 

[Smudger]

They probably didn't drag her to the surface because she was already injured and it would have risked making her injuries worse. The fact that she was given oxygen suggests that she was in a bad way. As does the fact that she had a heart attack. She had a trained paramedic with her for four hours, he would have assessed the situation as his first priority. He chose not to do it.

Of course you just can't winch someone out of a hole, especially a hole with jags and catches, especially if that person is injured and possibly semi-conscious. Firemen are bit fitter and know how to avoid injury when winched.

I can't speak for the firemen, but I'm heartily sick of these attempts to prove that 'Britain is broken' at every conceivable turn.

 

[newt]

I don't really get it. :?

If it was OK to use the hoist to lower a Fireman why was it not OK, memo aside, to use it to bring her up?

I assume it may be uncomfortable to use on the public, it cant kill or they would not use it for the fire fighters. Perhaps you have to be trained to use it. We really have got ourselves trapped, if you take a risk you could be in trouble, if you go for it you could be in trouble :x

 

[studders]

I expect ya right. Red Tape, buttocks covering from on High etc...

but, given the circs and bearing in mind it appears those at the scene (The Firemen) wanted to do it, why didn't Big Chief at Scene say 'sod it' 'do it' ?

Not a dig at the Fire Service btw, just that if I were in charge at the scene I would have worried about the red tape afterwards.

 

[Jake]

It will be interesting to see the conclusions, after all the evidence.

 

[studders]

..... I'm guessing they were reasonably satisfied that she was not in immediate danger.

I guess you really had to be there.

A good point, I suppose she may well have 'appeared' OK and not in immediate danger of dying from her injuries. Impossible for them to know she was going to have a Heart Attack, which could have occurred at any time, maybe days later.
In which case risking further injury by using the winch would not have been a sensible option.

 

[Digit]

Indeed the fireman should know about whether it was safe to haul her out or not...

told the fatal accident inquiry at Kilmarnock Sheriff Court that it would have been possible to pull Ms Hume up had it not been for the memo.

Sounds pretty conclusive.

Roy.

 

[Jake]

Indeed the fireman should know about whether it was safe to haul her out or not...

told the fatal accident inquiry at Kilmarnock Sheriff Court that it would have been possible to pull Ms Hume up had it not been for the memo.

Sounds pretty conclusive.

But that's the evidence of the person who gave the command that they couldn't use the lifting equipment for health and safety reasons, so he has an interest in showing that he was actually prevented from using it by the memo - otherwise it is potentially his fault. I'm not saying he's wrong, he may well be right, but you can't judge the situation just on what he says.

 

[Digit]

True! Also it doesn't automatically make him a liar does it? That is what the enquiry is to ascertain.

Roy.

 

[Jake]

Not at all - I was editing my post to make it clear that wasn't what I meant while you were posting that.

 

[Smudger]

Is possible the same as advisable?

"Would it have been possible to winch her up?"
"Well yes, but..."
"Just answer yes or no. Did the memo have any bearing on why you didn't winch her up?"
"Well yes, but..."
"Thank you."

 

[RogerS]

...... She had a trained paramedic with her for four hours, he would have assessed the situation as his first priority. He chose not to do it.

......

No he wasn't down there. If you read the article carefully it says ..

."A paramedic volunteered to treat her but was prevented from being lowered."

 

[laird]

Also what isn't mentioned is that there's a Coastguard cliff rescue team based about half an hour's drive away.
No-one requested their callout.