General questions about veneer and veneering.

[builderchad]

I've been reading up loads on veneering and even cut some on my bandsaw and had a go at glueing up little pieces with titebond. Vacuum veneering seems to be really effective but very expensive :shock:. I certainly don't want to outlay that much cash at this point so I will have to settle for my G-clamps and wood slightly tapered. I'm still a little puzzled about a few things though:

1) Veneering edges (facing?) is all very well and good but doesn't that mean that you will see the thickness of the edge strip on the faces of the board?

2) If yes to above, are there ways of reducing this down to barely noticable?

3) I want to build a little chest of drawers with sides and top appearing as though they are solid (as opposed to frame and panel). But I would also like to join to the sides to the top with dovetails and also use sliding dovetails for the web carcass that will support the drawers - with ends exposed at the front. Would cutting doves on a veneered piece cause the veneer to lift off or tearout more easily than solid wood? Are doves advisable at all?

4) There seems to be many ways of veneering and the hot glue method looks like the most flexible and effective - is this correct? I'm not sure I want all that mess and would be much happier using a more modern method BUT I know already that I will be laying out several (bookmatched?) thinner strips of wood on larger boards for sides/panels so is the hot method better for this?

5) The figured wood I will be using is tiger oak as shown in this thread: https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9984. It is very hard and quite brittle as I suspect most oak usually is so I am concerned with the minimum thickness of the veneer I should be cutting. If I do make psuedo solid sides and top I am aiming at a total thickness of around 18mm. Would I need 6mm tiger for each side and a 6mm plain oak core. Any pointers or opinions on this?

Any other general tips would be very welcome as this is my first veneering project and I am very nervous about it as I can see a million things going wrong and me turning a lot of lovely tiger wood into scrap.

Thanks, Chad.

 

[woodbloke]

Quite a bit of my work has been veneered, I now use an Air Press with and 8x4' bag which really does take all (or most) of the considerable hassle out of veneering.
Its usual to put a 5mm lipping onto each edge before veneering the surcace, if the end of the lipping is not to be seen then the corners need to be mitred. Lipping can be simply cramped with stretchy masking tape - very effective. Your chest of drawers could easily be made by using veneered panels but IMO forget dovetails for the carcase construction - biscuits are always good here.
For a very in depth appreciation of hot glue techniques (and there are several advantages) recent articles by John Lloyd in F&C are definitely worth a view.
I always now use a D3 waterproof PVA adhesive and I made a spreader out of a piece of thin plastic - cut the edge with a hack saw into little teeth to spread the glue.
Commercial veneers are .6mm thick (except constructional) but I suspect that you may be cutting your own, so in that case I would make them at least 2mm thick, which means that you may have to veneer first and lip afterwards, which is a slightly trickier proposition.
To join veneers definitely make yourself a long veneer shooting board so that you can shoot a pair of leaves together - I've tried all sorts of mehtods in the past and this is the easiest by far, and finally buy a roll or two of veneering tape which can be easily removed after glueing with copious quantities of water and a nylon washing up scourer - hence the ablsolute requirement for waterproof glue. Afterwards remove excess veneer with a bottom bearing cutter in a router - Rob

 

[Colin C]

Hi builderchad,
For a start hot glue veneering is a bit messy but it depends on how you set yourself up at the start, I was asked to do a how to on what you have asked about ( making a board look like soild ).
Hot glue or hide glue is cheap and very forgiving abd you dont need to but a glue pot, just go to the carboot and get a pot that you would do chocolate in( mine cost me £3 ).
You can make you edges look part of your board but it helps if you cut your edges for the one board so that the grain matchs.
I have some time this weekend so watch out for the how to
Ps I will also pull my finger out and get those plans for you

 

[Scrit]

Veneering edges (facing?) is all very well and good but doesn't that mean that you will see the thickness of the edge strip on the faces of the board?

As Woodbloke says to overcome this apply solid lippings to the edges of the piece (5 or 6mm thick), trim then over veneer. With factory veneers especially the edge is barely discernable working this way (after all modern veneers are sub 1.0mm thick) and this means you can profile the edge with a router, plane or spindle moulder if you wish

If you are looking to dovetail a veneered sheet I'd not recommend doing it as the veneer is thin and potentially too fragile to take the extra handling that dovetails entail. I'd leave the dovetails to solid pieces.

As to which technique - you're going to start a war, here....... :lol: Possibly a good starting point is Elmers liquid hide glue which can be applied cold but otherwise behaves in a similar fashion to hot glue, except it has a longer open time. As Colin says if you get yourself a bain marie or as we English call it a double boiler you can make a start with pearl hide glue. I'd say this was a good place to start learning hammer veneering techniques without requiring much expenditure. Just try to keep a separet small kit of tools for glueing as they will quickly get rather blackend and grotty looking. And as for cramps, it's amazing how much pressure can be applied with a piece of plywood and some Celcon building blocks (inside builders rubble sacks) and for edges, as Woodbloke says, pins, masking tape and cord.

The figured wood I will be using is tiger oak..... .....It is very hard and quite brittle as I suspect most oak usually is so I am concerned with the minimum thickness of the veneer I should be cutting. If I do make psuedo solid sides and top I am aiming at a total thickness of around 18mm. Would I need 6mm tiger for each side and a 6mm plain oak core. Any pointers or opinions on this?

I'd also go a lot thinner on the veneer, 2 to 3mm, and use a thicker core. But I'd suggest starting with a flat, stable core such as MDF (or birch ply if you like) rather than solid wood. It is acceptably flat and doesn't move a lot, something that you may find yourself struggling with in a cross-grain oak "plywood". And by using a thinner veneer you will also give yourself a greater yield from the tiger oak, so more veneer to make more stuff!

Good luck!

Scrit

 

[engineer one]

at the risk of bringing down the rain, has anyone used one
of those things they sell for storing your old duvets etc??

they are vacuum bags, and i wonder whether you need much more than
6psi over atmosphere, and since these remove enough air to reduce your
duvet by 50% i wondered whether it might work, not least because they
only cost about a tenner in woolies.

sadly i have nothing i want to veneer, otherwise i would try honest :lol:

paul :wink:

 

[woodbloke]

they are vacuum bags, and i wonder whether you need much more than
6psi over atmosphere

I had a small leak in my bag a while back and tried to do a press. I could only draw about half the pressure needed and the result was not good, bubbles and lumps all over the place. With a proper, thick plastic bag designed for the job, and no leaks, you can press to a pressure of over 2000lbs per sq foot - that does the job - Rob

 

[engineer one]

ok rob, that answers my question
nice to know :lol:

paul :wink:

 

[woodbloke]

ok rob, that answers my question
nice to know

Hi Paul - to be fair, I had a look at those bags but they don't seem strong enough to pull a good vacuum over the job - Rob

 

[MIGNAL]

I'm not really keen on the liquid hide glue, I find it a little on the thick side and not as strong as the traditional type. Most Violin makers shun the stuff and they use animal type glues exclusively. If your looking for a simple, reliable and time tested method then traditional 'hammer veneering' is a good option. Vacuum veneering obviously works but usually incurs greater expense at start up.
I use a baby bottle warmer that maintains the glue temperature at close to the ideal of 140 farenheit but the warmer is on the small side for furniture work.

 

[Colin C]

Also if you want to amke the glue stronger (hide glue), stick some garlic in it .
Works a treat

 

[MIGNAL]

Hmmm, I've heard something similar to the old garlic. My thoughts are that it
probably was used to prevent the glue going off rather than to make it actually stronger - hide glues of the right quality have plenty of strength, don't forget this stuff actually etches glass.

 

[builderchad]

Thanks for all the replies. Alarm bells are ringing and I feel even more nervous about slicing up my oak and murdering it now. Funny cause when I started in August without a sinlge tool and too much confidence I made a toolchest that came out pretty well, a bookcase, two dovetail boxes and a bowsaw. Now that I am looking into veneering that confidence has gone on holiday. It seems like black art to me and I will end up with some lumpy ugly boards and no more lovely tiger oak.

Rob - If I need to lip and then veneer over the top of that, this means each piece I make has to be in the final dimensions for how its going to be used? Is there much movement of the piece after it has been veneered? Is there another joint I can use instead of biscuits as I dont have the machine yet - my bank is sending me death threats :lol:.

Colin - I look forward to your how to. I bought a book with traditional furniture plans and one of the pieces has secret compartments, two drawers are removed and the web section pulls out to reveal two secret compartments.

Scrit - Will oak be strong and flexible enough at 2mm? I guess I could always just take a slice and find out. With my clumsy, untrained hands I need the most forgiving technique and materials possible while I am learning how to veneer.

I am considering leaving the tiger oak sit a while and try veneering something cheaper. No idea why this has got me all spooked when I have come this far but it does seem like something I could mess up royally.

Thanks again for all the replies, Chad.

 

[Alf]

Funny cause when I started in August without a sinlge tool and too much confidence I made a toolchest that came out pretty well, a bookcase, two dovetail boxes and a bowsaw.

Chad, that sounds all too familiar. Heck, I started out slightly more serious woodwork by veneering balsa wood using PVA, a scalpel and a straight edge - and it worked. Would I do it now? Or course not; the balsa's no good as a substrate (how I didn't crush it I'll never know), the PVA's not much cop as the glue, the veneer I was using was too thin, the scaplel made V-shaped cuts instead of straigt ones... etc etc. But nevertheless I have boxes I made 15 years ago that are still going strong.

In short; ignorance is a highly underrated state of being. :lol:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Scrit]

Hi Chad

If you are lipping then veneering and you want an overall size at the end then just reduce the dimensions of the substrate to take account of the thickness of the lippings. If your substrate is stable to start with, such as MDF or plywood you'll not really have to worry too much about movement. And veneered sheet stock takes biscuits, dowels or stopped housings well. You just treat the lipped and veneered piece much as though it were a piece of MDF or plywood for jointing.

At 2mm oak will be strong enough, after the real strength is in the substrate and the glue bond between the substrate and the veneer. It won't, however, be all that flexible. Are you veneering onto a flat substrate or a curved one? If it's flat then no problems. If it's curved you may need to think in terms of going slightly thinner on the veneer - say 1.0 to 1.5mm to get the flexibility you need. It all depends on the radius of the curve.

I have to ask, Chad, have you mastered the technique of bandsawing your own veneers yet? If not it might be worth getting a piece of pine and practising on that to start with. Then try your veneering techniques on the home-cut pine veneers. For that I would suggest using MDF as the substrate as it is near perfectly flat and it doesn't move - it's also really cheap.

Scrit

 

[Colin C]

builderchad
You also have to remember to veneer both sides to balance the board or you will have problems have the board cupping.
I will get on and start the how to soon and its not a black art once you know some basic do's and dont's
You can also have fun making some of your own tools , do you have some thick brass , pespex or alu ( about 4mm)

 

[woodbloke]

Rob - If I need to lip and then veneer over the top of that, this means each piece I make has to be in the final dimensions for how its going to be used? Is there much movement of the piece after it has been veneered? Is there another joint I can use instead of biscuits as I dont have the machine yet - my bank is sending me death threats

If you don't require the lipping to show at the ends then yes, the veneered piece has to be finished pretty much to the final size as the lipped corners need to be mitred. Use a stable substrate such as mdf or ply which will, or ought not to move, though it may go into 'wind' (twist in the diagonals) and as said by others, veneer both sides or the veneer will pull the board into curve as the glue dries. You can obtain very good results with cauls and G cramps, provided that you have enough of them. Regarding glue, I've never had a bad press using PVA glue - its fantastically strong but you must obtain the D3 type which is waterproof. If your bank manager is threatening to lynch you, as an alternative to biscuits, dowelling comes a close second though is somewhat trickier to do accurately, though of course you don't need an expensive machine. That said, I would recommend that a good biscuiter be your next power tool purchase. Might also be a good idea to have a practice at veneering using some el cheapo veneer rather that slice up your very pretty tiger oak, have a look at the Capital Crispin site - that's where I get all my stuff from. Also you could have a trawl round your local cabinet shops and see if you can scrounge some oddments of veneer - Rob

 

[Colin C]

Hi woodbloke,
When it comes to the ends of the board, you dont have to mitre the corners if you use end grain and biscuit it on.
This way you can have MDF look like a solid board ( I will show this in my how to ), this is for all that have not seen this before

 

[woodbloke]

When it comes to the ends of the board, you dont have to mitre the corners if you use end grain and biscuit it on.

No comprendo? If you lip a piece of mdf (or similar) all round and you don't want the end grain of the lipping to showanywhere, it follows that you must mitre the lipping, either that or I'm being a bit dense, at least that's how I've always done it - Rob

 

[Colin C]

Ok
All will become clear in a few days

 

[Colin C]

And the garlic does work as it was used in hide glue when it was used to glue down brass and tortoise shell. [-(