Finish for silver birch bowl

[Keithie]

I made a remarkably dull 8" bowl from lightly spalted seasoned silver birch (the mild point of interest for me being that it was easy enough to turn the whole outside with only a skew) and have a couple more similar bowl blanks to work on. I decided to try linseed oil as a finish on this one ..

but I'm not sure it adds much.

Has anyone else tried various finishes on silver birch with a better outcome (or is the wood itself really better for the logburner!) ?

 

[CHJ]

For anything like a sound finish that will stand up to handling on soft wood like Silver Birch you need to use a sanding sealer to firm up the loose fibres and form a sound skin to take a wax finish or use a polimerising oil that will harden up like a Hard Wax Oil.


I am extremely nervous about you continuing to use a skew chisel on the outside of Bowl forms, if you are using it in planning mode and not just shear scraping then my advice is don't do it.
One of these days the wood end grain is going to bite back and with the inertia provided with that diameter of piece a very serious accident is likely to happen.

 

[Keithie]

For anything like a sound finish that will stand up to handling on soft wood like Silver Birch you need to use a sanding sealer to firm up the loose fibres and form a sound skin to take a wax finish or use a polimerising oil that will harden up like a Hard Wax oil.


I am extremely nervous about you continuing to use a skew chisel on the outside of Bowl forms, if you are using it in planning mode and not just shear scraping then my advice is don't do it.
One of these days the wood end grain is going to bite back and with the inertia provided with that diameter of piece a very serious accident is likely to happen.

Lol Chas ... I knew if I teased you about me using a skew chisel for the whole of a bowl (but obviously you wouldnt believe me if I said the inside!) you'd jump on it immediately!

Of course I dont use a skew chisel on a bowl ...I'm not quite as dumb as you may think!
Even if it could be done safely by an expert, I'm nowhere near that standard and have more than enough trouble making a gentle continuous cut with a bowl gouge !

The reason for using raw linseed was just because pf the polymerisation.
I may be wrong but I thought linseed does polymerise .. a light coat every other day for a week then leave it for a week

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linseed_oil

thanks for the feedback though ...all input welcome

 

[CHJ]

Lol Chas ... I knew if I teased you about me using a skew chisel for the whole of a bowl (but obviously you wouldnt believe me if I said the inside!) you'd jump on it immediately!

And what if a total newbie to turning sees such comments in isolation and does not follow through a thread or see the statement pass unchallenged ? not amusing if someone gets seriously injured because of such.

 

[Keithie]

Lol Chas ... I knew if I teased you about me using a skew chisel for the whole of a bowl (but obviously you wouldnt believe me if I said the inside!) you'd jump on it immediately!

And what if a total newbie to turning sees such comments in isolation and does not follow through a thread or see the statement pass unchallenged ? not amusing if someone gets seriously injured because of such.

1. I recognise you have a decade or more of experience, are a moderator and a very longstanding member of the forum.
2. I'm sure you're aware, given this experience of moderation, about the nature of cyberbullying. My guess is that effective moderation needs to tread a balance between support, safety and repeated criticism/denigration , particularly when there is a significant seniority difference within the environment.
3. You seem to state in your post which I first quoted above in this thread, that it might be ok for even me to use a skew on its side (which I havent tried but probably will when I get better)..what if that caught and harmed a total newcomer...entirely possible, especially if specfic direction about rest height vs centre height isnt given and accurately followed ..coming from a much more experienced turner and moderator, that suggested use of a skew carries far more weight than from a novice like me. Everyone who woodturns knows its dangerous so maybe your legal liability isnt so high as you may fear!
4. You seem to state that I've been using a skew on bowls before (presumably correctly orientated ones)..this it isnt true and may be defamation/denigration. We've had this debate before where I set out a complete list of my specific uses of a skew and by responding to it you implicitly accepted that my stated uses of the skew are ok and added that I could even use a skew to form a dovetail on a correctly orientated bowl
5. It's not clear at all that every potentially dangerous use of a turning tool suggested in this forum is jumped on by moderators ...in fact I recall that it was me who pointed out that the use of the tip of a skew chisel to finish the bottom corners of a small end grain hollow sounded dangerous for a novice. I doubt you're levying karma on me for that though!

Having said all that, I'd like to add that since I've been posting here your advice and experience has, from my point of view, been overall excellent, almost always correct and has helped me enormously in improving my turning skills. For my taste it can seem a little heavy handed at times ...but maybe that's just your style.
Heavy handed but correct advice is a lot better than no advice or advice which is wrong in some absolute manner!

I'm sorry you didnt react too well to me teasing you ...but I'm sure I'm not the only person ever to have done so!

Genuinely, your advice, taken overall as the combination of style and substance, is very well received by me.

cheers
Keith

ps did you like my bowl ? .. its my first with an internal foot dovetail to be supported by the outside of the c jaws ...created by a parting tool!

 

[nev]

...
2. I'm sure you're aware, given this experience of moderation, about the nature of cyberbullying. My guess is that effective moderation needs to tread a balance between support, safety and repeated criticism/denigration , particularly when there is a significant seniority difference within the environment.
3. You seem to state in your post which I first quoted above in this thread, that it might be ok for even me to use a skew on its side (which I havent tried but probably will when I get better)..what if that caught and harmed a total newcomer...entirely possible, especially if specfic direction about rest height vs centre height isnt given and accurately followed ..coming from a much more experienced turner and moderator, that suggested use of a skew carries far more weight than from a novice like me. Everyone who woodturns knows its dangerous so maybe your legal liability isnt so high as you may fear!
4. You seem to state that I've been using a skew on bowls before (presumably correctly orientated ones)..this it isnt true and may be defamation/denigration. We've had this debate before where I set out a complete list of my specific uses of a skew and by responding to it you implicitly accepted that my stated uses of the skew are ok and added that I could even use a skew to form a dovetail on a correctly orientated bowl
5. It's not clear at all that every potentially dangerous use of a turning tool suggested in this forum is jumped on by moderators ...in fact I recall that it was me who pointed out that the use of the tip of a skew chisel to finish the bottom corners of a small end grain hollow sounded dangerous for a novice. I doubt you're levying karma on me for that though!
....

I hesitated to reply as I am also a Moderator and you may deem it cyberbullying if someone also of the same 'seniority within the environment' :shock: adds comment, but I'd just like to reply to, clarify or reinforce the above points.

Repeating or reinforcing the same comment for safety sake when a recipient of said information fails to grasp or understand the advice given is not bullying, cyber or otherwise. It is an attempt to get the point across that obviously failed before.

Using a skew on it side - it is now a scraper, and highly unlikely to dig in and launch a workpiece or snatch a tool from your hand. When used to create a dovetail on the foot of a bowl it is used in the same manner with the same with the same results, just the angle of the now scraping edge allows you to produce a dovetail. Same when using it as a scraper to finish inside a pot or similar.

I hope you take the above as it was written, as an attempt to clarify and not an attempt to embarrass you or just to support a fellow moderator, indeed I would reply in the same vein if it were you advising someone else.

 

[Keithie]

Thanks Nev for the clarifcation. I guess had that been been clearer originally and made in an unpersonalised manner it might have helped more, so its good that you've stepped in. So if I've understoodcorrectly, when Chas was talking about a skew he meant it was ok only it's role as a scraper. I guess if a moderator is gong to give advice then its pretty important indeed that its clear!! I hadnt recognised that point you make. It might be definitional but if one uses a scraper (skew on its side) to plane a spindle ...is that still planing or does it have a different term?

Separately, for the avoidance of doubt, it might be worth me clarifying a couple of matters (about which I used to know a little)..

1. I doubt I have legal capacity to 'deem' anything as 'cyberbullying'... my guess is that only a court could 'deem' something to be 'cyberbullying' and that the definition may vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. I guess this forum is publicly published in many jurisdictions indeed. My guess is that in some jurisdictions cyberbullyng may have different definitions than in others.

2. My opinion, for what its worth, is that there's a very big difference indeed between giving advice on the internet and simply stating what one does oneself. For example, if a person says they walked onto a busy motorway and were hit by a car but not too badly harmed, I doubt it would make them liable if someone else did it, was harmed and tried to blame the person who mentioned it!). By contrast if an expert gives direct advice which is followed andresults in harm then the position may be different.

Giving advice on the internet might typically be described to be 'a bad idea'. I'm pretty confident I dont give advice. I suspect that some folk, with only good intentions, do give advice and potentially increase their risk of litigation. I'm sure you and all lthe moderators (who may be jointly and severally liable) understand that I'm offering only a possibly outdated and ill-informed persoective for your own legal protection and being in no way directive. I imagine the last thing you want, is for a moderator and experienced turner to give online advice, someone to follow it, harm themselves and litigate!! These days I imagine that, seemingly ridiculously, it's actually a real risk! I dont know whether this is something you feel a need to reflect on, but I doubt such reflection would cause harm.


I do hope though that all the above to and fro doesnt deter others from offering their experiences in relation to finishes they have tried on woods such as silver birch or similar. It would be a shame if that was the social effect of repeated advice or clarifying comments by moderators on any individual's posts. Though obviously I wouldnt deem it cyberbullying! Lol!

 

[woodpig]

That's a very nice looking bowl Keith, I love the profile.

PM sent. :wink:

 

[nev]

I think you seem to be under some misapprehension about the term 'moderator'

moderator (ˈmɒdəˌreɪtə )
noun
1. a person or thing that moderates
2. Presbyterian Church
a minister appointed to preside over a Church court, synod, or general assembly
3. a presiding officer at a public or legislative assembly
4. a material, such as heavy water or graphite, used for slowing down neutrons in the cores of nuclear reactors so that they have more chance of inducing nuclear fission
5. an examiner at Oxford or Cambridge Universities in first public examinations
6. (in Britain and New Zealand) one who is responsible for consistency of standards in the grading of some educational assessments
7. a person who monitors the conversations in an on-line chatroom for bad language, inappropriate content, etc


Nowhere do the moderators proclaim to be experts in turning or any other discipline. If we, or indeed anyone on the forum offers any advice it is merely friendly advice passed on from one who has more experience, or learned from, the same mistakes that someone may be making.

Moderators are not here to say what is safe practice and what is not, we may offer advice, sometimes strongly worded if someone is in obvious chance of injuring themselves or others, but we are in no position to police what is or is not dangerous, that we leave to common sense and Darwin.

I really feel that if you want to be told exactly what is safe or exactly how to use something safely then an internet forum is not the place to ask.

If you feel that any advice should not be publicly discussed or offered, given in good faith without definite and legal proof and permission then thats 99.9% of the internet out of bounds!

I do hope though that all the above to and fro doesnt deter others from offering their experiences in relation to finishes they have tried on woods such as silver birch or similar. It would be a shame if that was the social effect of repeated advice or clarifying comments by moderators on any individual's posts. Though obviously I wouldnt deem it cyberbullying! Lol!

I think that with your previous comments about people not offering advice without being legally qualified to do so or risk prosecution should someone follow that advice to the letter and injure themselves, you may just have dissuaded many forum members from adding any input on any future questions that you may have.

Sorry to blunt and apologies for doing this in open forum but it is in reply to the previous few comments.

Regards
Nev (unqualified in everything )

 

[Keithie]

Sent you a pm Nev..

What I think is important to note is that you felt Chas's advice needed to be clarified.
Chas seems to me to be a self-styled woodturning expert who gives advice and induces liability.
It also seems to me that his role as moderator and very long standing member add extra authority to his advice ...but thats just my opinion. If he were removed from being a moderator then might his advice carry less weight ? I suspect so!
I definitely take his advice and I suspect many others do.
It seems to me to be good that you help to moderate Chas with clarifications
I certainly dont recall seeing you give any advice Nev...very sensible imo!

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Sent you a pm Nev..

What I think is important to note is that you felt Chas's advice needed to be clarified.
Chas seems to me to be a self-styled woodturning expert who gives advice and induces liability.
It also seems to me that his role as moderator and very long standing member add extra authority to his advice ...but thats just my opinion. If he were removed from being a moderator then might his advice carry less weight ? I suspect so!
I definitely take his advice and I suspect many others do.
It seems to me to be good that you help to moderate Chas with clarifications
I certainly dont recall seeing you give any advice Nev...very sensible imo!

The only reason people "need to clarify" posts in your threads is because you keep spending paragraph after paragraph talking about legal risk and liability! This is a woodworking forum. Kindly keep the content focused on woodwork and refrain from making comments about the personalities of Chas or indeed anyone else for that matter. For your information, self styling is the last thing Chas would ever do. The truth is he's a competent, modest and naturally helpful gentleman who extends the hand of friendship to forum members, freely giving of his time. Your constant fascination in steering the conversation towards legal liability is neither helpful nor solicited. Lets recall, this is a WOODWORKING forum. Please keep future comments on topic. Many thanks.

 

[nev]

Sent you a pm Nev..

What I think is important to note is that you felt Chas's advice needed to be clarified.
Chas seems to me to be a self-styled woodturning expert who gives advice and induces liability.
It also seems to me that his role as moderator and very long standing member add extra authority to his advice ...but thats just my opinion. If he were removed from being a moderator then might his advice carry less weight ? I suspect so!
I definitely take his advice and I suspect many others do.
It seems to me to be good that you help to moderate Chas with clarifications
I certainly dont recall seeing you give any advice Nev...very sensible imo!

Keith,
I did not 'clarify' CHJ's advice because I thought his advice needed clarifying, I merely attempted to a) explain it in a way a COMPLETE novice may understand it and b) to save CHJ the need to repeat again the advice given in other threads without the chance of you suggesting he was cyber- bullying you.

Chas is not as you state 'a self-styled woodturning expert' , but he is a very experienced woodturner that has offered his experience and advice to many, myself included. I have also offered advice many times, as have the other moderators, none of us proclaim to be experts.

I do not "help to moderate Chas with clarifications" unless I feel the recipient of such advice does not for some reason understand the plain english in which it is written. I merely try to be diplomatic, which at this time of night i find increasingly difficult.

If you have an issue with myself, CHJ or any of the other moderators please feel free to contact Charley the site owner and Admin.

EDIT: I see ROB has responded before me but I will leave my response here to give my reply to your specific points.

 

[ColeyS1]

Nice bowl. Not sure I understand the reason for deliberately bating someone to comment though.
My understanding of mods, is they get offered the role based on there willingness to help and general all round good character. It's just an extra bonus that the majority of them are also good at woodwork !
My wood turning skills are very basic and I was quite surprised to hear you were able to make such a nice shaped bowl using just the skew- I didn't realise it was a joke ! I'll stick to working through the grits, (25,40,60,80,100 etc ha ha) now I know you were having a giggle.
I find it quite comforting to know that dangerous suggestions get talked about and discussed- using a skew chisel wouldn't have been an obvious 'red flag,' so appreciate the clarification.

Cheers
Coley


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